Samoa Joe

[Fidel Cashflow 130]

In my opinion Joe is an Ok wrestler but is terribly overated for the simple reason has he ever had to carry a really weak opponent on a big stage. The answer is no. Most of the guys Joe has faced are smaller than him and so he can work that same style night after night.

 

His matches where he wins as said are a bit predictable, perhaps innovative ways of winning would be a thing but then to his credit how many times have we seen HBK win with sweer chin music or Triple H with a Pedigree.

It is just what they do, makes the wrestler something special.

 

He however does not have the carrying ability to carry a heavier less talented guy in the ring, for example say if Joe ever went to WWE can you imagine how bad the Batista Joe match would be.

 

Joe is a fantastic talent no doubt but unless he could carry someone like HBK, Styles, Daniels, Angle can then you are nowhere near the best, and I think the lack of charisma will prevent Joe from ever reaching the true top of one of the big two.

 

Joe please prove me wrong

 

I agree with that to some extent. Kevin Nash is a bad wrestler. But he has been pulled to some really good matches in his day by better wrestlers. Back in the day, when guys like Nash and Jarrett were starting out, wrestling was all about the basics and storytelling(for the most part). So even back then, guys who were crappy wrestlers were able to be pulled to great matches because they new basics and how to tell a story. Savage v Warrior from WM7 is one of the greatest matches of all, but neither come anywhere close to Samoa Joe and others when it comes to pure wrestlig ability.

 

These days, a great wrestler is defined by technical ability and storytelling ability. Back in thet day, storytelling was a must on any resume. There are a lot of wrestlers out there in todays world who lack basics and storytelling ability. The guys who have those are considered really good; Joe, Punk, AJ Daniels, HHH, HBK, Angle etc etc

 

JBL is able to be dragged to a really good match because he knows the basics and he knows the old school must, how to tell a story. JBL looks like crap against someone who doesn't know those two things, so does anyone. Saying Samoa Joe can't drag a bad worker to a good match is unfair, because your ideal bad worker is a JBL or Batista who get dragged to good matches by HHH and Angle, the ideal good workers. When Samoa Joe wrestles a bad worker on the Indy circuit, we're talking about the crap of crap. Spot Monkeys and extra generic big or not so big men.

 

Every good match Samoa Joe he has lead, and when working with guys like Low Ki, Aries, Punk, AJ(he wasn't nearly as good as he is now two years ago) etc etc that shows he is a good worker.

 

Samoa Joe v Batista would be a damn good WWE match (lets just imagine Joe would have to completely soften his style), because Batista knows the basics and knows how to sell a story, he is made to be dragged.

[Fidel Cashflow 130]

You mean after the Kip Up' date=' Atomic Drop, Clotheslines, ScoopSlam, Elbow Drop, "tune up the band" and SCM. Yup, that's "out of nowhere". :D[/quote']

But he is at his best when he misses the SCM or it gets reversed.

 

Like Mind Games when he hits that awesome step-up SCM on the top rope

 

Or stopping the Lionsault before it happened with the Nip-Up SCM

 

Or stuffing one in Bret's face in OT of the Ironman match

 

Or Shelton launching himself across the ring into one

 

You can't say that for Samoa Joe and the muscle buster (although a case can be made for the Island Choke, he's mixed that up)

[Guest Jack]

I can understand how his matches look very similar' date=' which wouldn't happen if he did lose some weight and be able to do more and go longer in matches.[/quote']

Although Joe is obese, he can actually go a very long match. The Joe vs Punk match I mentioned, which shouldn't be a lot from http://www.RoHWrestling.com, really is must see. It's a very high paced, back and forth, exciting match, and goes the full hour.

Although it lasts an hour, I've seen 15 minute matches that seem to be a lot longer, which says something.

 

So, yeah, Joe's weight doesn't really affect his stamina, but I do think he could be far better if he wasn't so fat.

 

He would also have a higher chance of succeeding in the mainstream, if he looked better. the smarks who go to the shows live, appreciate workrate. I can't see casual fans getting behind such an ugly, uncharismatic wrestler to be honest.

 

EDIT: It's really worth picking up the Joe vs Punk II card. The under card matches are good, it features a phenomenal promo by Foley and Steamboat, and of course a brilliant match at the end.

 

https://www.rohwrestling.com/shoponline.asp?point=moreinfo&catid=187&id=807

Edited November 4, 2005 by Jack

[Guest MrFill]

I think with Joe working in RoH and TNA, the fans appreciate what he does more than how he looks.

 

With the RoH and TNA fans being WRESTLING fans, he gets more pops and cheers than a WWE crowd would do.

 

If you look at the TNA & RoH rosters, none of them are roided up freaks, unlike the WWE where a lot of them are far too muscular to be truly flexible.

[Guest Danny Styles]

If you look at the TNA & RoH rosters' date=' none of them are roided up freaks, unlike the WWE where a lot of them are far too muscular to be truly flexible.[/quote']

 

 

well Joes flab could hinder him sometimes :D

 

and i'm not sure but do you think Monty Brown could have done steroids at a time?? hes's the most ripped guy on the roster and looks immensly muscley... im not saying he did but am just wondering

[Guest The B-Man]

well Joes flab could hinder him sometimes :D

 

and i'm not sure but do you think Monty Brown could have done steroids at a time?? hes's the most ripped guy on the roster and looks immensly muscley... im not saying he did but am just wondering

 

Possible but I don't think so I think would come from his American Football background myself.

[Guest MrFill]

and i'm not sure but do you think Monty Brown could have done steroids at a time?? hes's the most ripped guy on the roster and looks immensly muscley... im not saying he did but am just wondering

If he has taken steroids in the past, then there's NO WAY he could have played in 2 SuperBowls, and he did.

 

The NFL is MUCH stricter on steroids than wrestling, so I think a lot of it has come through from his football past.

[Guest Destroyer]

Samoa Joe is god like. Can't say nothing less.

[Guest Brad]

Now i think the same of Amazing Red, you see his matches with Low Ki and AJ for example in the early TNA, both great matches but both had the same routines, i understand where you're coming from and can see it as a bit boring, but really, Joe can do a lot more things then what Dave7g said about Cena, Flair, HHH etc. I think it's just them moves you see the most because it's them moves that always are recognised because they stand out for importance and how good he is at doing them moves.

[Guest Jack]

Here is Meltzers review of Joe vs Kobash, which has got 5*'s.

 

I just saw the Kenta Kobashi vs. Samoa Joe footage, with no commentary, from the 10/1 show from the New Yorker Hotel in Manhattan. The match is pretty much as it's billed. It's far from the best match I've ever seen in my life, but I'd give it *****, and that only makes four matches in the U.S. in the last nine years I've give that to, and what's scary, it's the third with Joe.

 

Of course the crowd made a difference. There were chants of "this is awesome" in the first 2:00 before much of anything had happened. But the match was just ridiculously physical. It's not like this would have been a **** match somewhere else but the crowd made it seem better than it was. The crowd always ends up making some of the difference in a great match. It was kind of amazing to see a match where one of the guys did nothing but chops and a few carefully placed suplexes, and almost nothing offensive on the mat, as his entire offense in a match this good, which speaks volumes about getting a few trademark spots over huge and building matches around them.

 

The Hart vs. Austin match in 1997 was at Wrestlemania, and is generally considered the best match ever at Mania. It was among the best matches in WWF history both because it was an excellent brawl, and got over the double turn storyline over strongly and had the memorable picture perfect finish of Hart with the sharpshooter, Austin covered with blood and refusing to tap, and eventually passing out while refusing. The truth was, it was clear a week before the match that Hart was going in as the heel and Austin as the face, but the match put the exclamation points on both turns and led to one of the most memorable feuds in wrestling history. In fact, as good as that match seemed to be at the time, historically, it was far more important because it was the springboard to the Austin face turn that was the major factor in WWF's popularity reaching the heights it did at its peak a few years later. A lot of people say it was the major factor in winning the wrestling war, but it was the incompetence of WCW that won the wrestling war.

 

Joe vs. Punk in 2004 was more the right match in the right place at the right time. The title was over. Punk was challenging in his home town. And they went an excellent 60:00, with good build and a final 15:00 that were blow away. It would have been a good match under most circu

 

mstances, but would it have come across as special somewhere else on another day? Not nearly.

 

In this one, the things to me were just how hard Kobashi worked and how much he was willing to take and do before less than 1,000 people; and how he worked a match putting Joe, who is nowhere near his level of star on an international basis, over as an equal and a threat. Still, the keys to the match were the brutal chops and slaps both guys were willing to take. While not every crowd would have treated Kobashi like he was the God of wrestling that they were seeing live for the first time, I can't imagine this match in any setting and not working to almost the same degree.

Everything was solid and believable.

 

There was no slapstick or comedy to take the crowd out of the mood, nor stuff out of context that halted the momentum of the match. It was a unique mood, because it was clear it didn't matter who won or lost, although anyone who knows politics of wrestling and Kobashi's spot in Japan knew the only possible results were a draw or Kobashi going over. Really, the latter was the only finish I could even envision. They were there to see the first meeting, and who knows, maybe the only meeting, of their at the time dream match. And that did make it easier, and harder. Easier in that everything solid was going to get a great reaction. Harder in that anything less than a 100% effort from both men would mean the match wouldn't live up to expectations at the end. This match didn't come close when it came to wild moves and athleticism to Joe vs. Christopher Daniels vs. A.J. Styles (the other match I gave ***** to), or to a lesser extent, Kurt Angle vs. Shawn Michaels or the first Daniels vs. Styles Iron Man match (two other strong U.S. match of the year contenders). But from a Japanese standpoint of who is the guy "who can take the most," professional wrestling without resorting to permanently disfiguring someone, it was above those matches, because the chops from both sides were something to behold, and Joe's chest as the match went on was visible proof of it.

 

The crowd exploded with Kobashi's first chop very similar to an 80s crowd in a "smart city" like Baltimore used to do with a Ric Flair match. Joe knocked Kobashi out of the ring and did an elbow suicida. In many ways, Joe almost played the role of Toshiaki Kawada, with things like the rapid kicks or knees to a bent over Kobashi, with Kobashi making the same style comeback. The crowd was very familiar with it, and that's really what they wanted–familiar spots they had seen on tape but never live.

 

Kobashi took the Ole, Ole kick while sitting in a chair outside the ring. When Joe tried a second, Kobashi got out of the chair and met him with a chop. He put Joe in the chair, then delivered a ridiculous chop with Joe flying out of the chair and over the guard rail. The place went nuts for a chop exchange right out of a Kobashi/Tenryu or Kobashi/Sasaki sequence. Joe blocked a chop, and took Kobashi down with a hip toss and followed with a senton. Joe took Kobashi in the corner and used a punch and chop sequence right out of a Tenryu playbook. Joe power bombed Kobashi into the turnbuckles and followed with face wash kicks. Joe did a power bomb and followed with an STF, and then hooked Kobashi's hand so he couldn't make the ropes, but Kobashi maneuvered his foot onto the ropes for a break. Kobashi then delivered his first half nelson suplex, and followed with 16 straight chops in the corner. Just when you thought that was over, Kobashi was just getting started, with 68 more chops and four more double hand chops. Kobashi survived a muscle buster and came back with another half nelson German suplex. Joe got his hand on the rope to break up the pin. Kobashi put on a sleeper, then delivered a sleeper suplex. Joe made the desperation recovery throwing hard slaps, but Kobashi came back with three spinning back chops and a running lariat for the pin.

 

It's funny, because after seeing it, I told Gabe Sapolsky that when he releases the match on DVD, it should be without commentary. He said he'd already decided to do the same thing. I don't think matches without commentary work in most instances on a commercial DVD, but on rare occasions, and this match would be one, commentary could really only take the presentation down.

 

When it was over, the most notable thing was not only that Kobashi worked Joe as an equal, even though Joe has never been what would be called a mainstream star in Japan, but also that Joe more than held up his end. There hasn't been a foreign wrestler in NOAH ever who Kobashi has ever been able to work like this with. You'd have to go back to the heyday of people like Stan Hansen, Steve Williams and Vader in All Japan. The thing that struck me is just how messed up Japan is these days when it comes to evaluation and scouting of talent. What Joe has going against him are two things. He's not tall (probably 6-0 legit, as Abyss, a legit 6-4, towered over him when they did the spots in the TNA Rumble last week). He's heavy and his body type is not a negative in Japan like it would be in WWE (in actuality, his body type in WWE would be a negative for the first five minutes he's in the company, and, after that, the only people who would care are management and wrestlers who are brainwashed into thinking you have to look a certain way to be a star). But the other negative is simply he was never a mainstream star with an already established reputation. If you look at the superstar foreigners in Japan that really broke out, like Brody, Hansen, Funks, Mascaras, Williams, Gordy, Hogan, Andre, Vader and Norton, all but the latter two were established superstars in the U.S. first, and the latter two were the big powerhouse types that Japan has favored foreigners to be, and the company had decided to go all the way with them before they even had their first match. Vader actually grew into the role later. Norton made himself a nice career because he was pushed and got over when the company was really hot and was established in fans' eyes as a monster. While he was a crummy worker, he was very believable at playing the big powerhouse role. Still, if a guy could go like this 15 years ago, he'd have gotten a Japan tour, and he may have to work his way up from the middle, but he'd do so and he'd have made a 15 year career as a regular there. The fact NOAH, New Japan and All Japan aren't using him as their top foreigner after a match like this, NOAH in particular since it's driven by matches exactly like this, really shows the problems with talent evaluation there.

 

It's far from the best match I've ever seen in my life' date=' but I'd give it *****[/quote']Then why give it 5*'s?

 

5/5 should be perfect, right? If this isn't the best match he has ever seen, why not give it, 4.5/5? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Anyway, well done to Joe and Kobashi, who have obviously had a good match, and well done to RoH for booking it. 3, 5* matches since 2002, and a load of 4* plus matches, proves it is the best wrestling in North America.

 

Fact.

[Guest Russ]

Either Meltzer is getting easier to please, he's become more biased or wrestling is just getting a lot better. No ***** matches in the US since Austin Vs Bret, but three in about a year and two within the space of a few weeks?

 

I'm genuinely not meaning this in a disparaging way, to me Meltzer is still about the only guy who you can trust 99% of the time and I have no doubt that I'll think that Joe Vs Kobashi is ***** when I get to see it in full. I'm just curious as to whether we're currently in an era where the wrestling is better than ever that even Meltzer, who's been watching for 35 years or so, is technically saying so himself.

[Guest MrFill]

5/5 should be perfect, right? If this isn't the best match he has ever seen, why not give it, 4.5/5? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Anyway, well done to Joe and Kobashi, who have obviously had a good match, and well done to RoH for booking it. 3, 5* matches since 2002, and a load of 4* plus matches, proves it is the best wrestling in North America.

Well, it doesn't have to be "perfect", otherwise there can only be one true five star match, otherwise if anything else is better, then it's just moved the "perfect" bar up a notch, and the previous five star match has to be moved down to **** 3/4.

[Guest Brad]

But there can be more then one perfect match, and there has been, there is no way someone can factually say the best ever match and then degrade the other so called perfect matches. Some matches are 5 stars without question and they shouldn't be degraded just because there is another 5 star match.

[Guest Danny Styles]

but oh my god joe is ugly:P

[Guest MrFill]

but oh my god joe is ugly:P

I'm sure he doesn't think you're the most handsome guy around either. :D

[Guest Brad]

why bring in something like that, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about and since when has uglyness been the key factor to being a great superstar and putting on great matches. I do like the old jokes here and there but not right in the middle of a thread like this.

[Guest Danny Styles]

I'm sure he doesn't think you're the most handsome guy around either. :D

oh you'd be suprised ;)

 

 

why bring in something like that' date=' that has nothing to do with what we are talking about and since when has uglyness been the key factor to being a great superstar and putting on great matches. I do like the old jokes here and there but not right in the middle of a thread like this.[/Quote']

 

well no one else was posting anything in the thread