Comments That Don't Require Their Own Thread 2007

[Naitch 207]

How many real 'turds' did he even have on PPV since that JBL match anyway? Maybe 2 or 3? And from what I can remember at least one of those was against Kurt Angle who around that time started to go downhill fast and hasn't gone back up since. The Cena feud was, I think, the first time an awful lot of people started turning against Angle thinking, you know, maybe this guy isn't so great after all. The backlash has been growing ever since.

[Guest Dave7g]

And how many of those "amazing" matches weren't 3- ways where he spent 80% of the match on the floor selling something that would miraculously heal when he came back in for the finish? How many of these matches weren't gimmick matches?

 

I mean, Edge could wrestle the Coach and have a classic, if it was a ladder match.

[Guest Rog]

http://www.wwe.com/shows/thegreatamericanbash/

 

Oddly WWE fans have voted for a match that never happened as thier favourite?

[Guest Dave7g]

http://www.wwe.com/shows/thegreatamericanbash/

 

Oddly WWE fans have voted for a match that never happened as thier favourite?

 

If you ever needed proof that WWE rig their polls to make some stars look bigger than they actually are, there is all you need.

[Guest The Great Ahmar]

Scott Hall looking a lot slimmer, but damn old!

 

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/chulo1208/ScottHallinPR.jpg

[Guest Dave7g]

He looks like an old drunk staggering around on a Sunday afternoon.

[Guest Twig]

Alcohol has torn him apart, but that won't stop him from returning to the ring on July 13th

[Guest The Beltster]

Cena vs JBL at WM21 was absolute crap, even for a TV match it wouldnt change that, it sucked BIG TIME! Their rematch was so good, it shows what throwing two guys into a gimmick match can do. The match was fantastic, as a matter of fact, Cena is at his best when he has the shortcuts available to him, and that is NOT a knock, its just how it is. He is better suited when he has gimmicks like chairs and sticks and when he can brawl all around the place.

 

Either way, he is the best guy for working a match and making it feel like a main event in WWE at this point. HBK doesnt feel like a main event big deal match when he works, nor does Batista or Undertaker. Cena and HHH are the only ones I'd say, right now, shame I dislike them both.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Cena vs JBL at WM21 was absolute crap, even for a TV match it wouldnt change that, it sucked BIG TIME! Their rematch was so good, it shows what throwing two guys into a gimmick match can do. The match was fantastic, as a matter of fact, Cena is at his best when he has the shortcuts available to him, and that is NOT a knock, its just how it is. He is better suited when he has gimmicks like chairs and sticks and when he can brawl all around the place.

 

Either way, he is the best guy for working a match and making it feel like a main event in WWE at this point. HBK doesnt feel like a main event big deal match when he works, nor does Batista or Undertaker. Cena and HHH are the only ones I'd say, right now, shame I dislike them both.

 

Trust me, I was as disappointed as anyone with Cena/JBL when it actually happened. I was dreading having to watch it again as I watched WM, but as I say, I was pleasantly surprised that it was watchable. Same with Trish/Christy, horrible match I thought, but I could watch it the other day. Maybe because I hadnt seen it for so long, I dont know.

 

Batista, and Undertaker these days, have the problem of looking like absolute megastars, until they start a match. Although Undie has the advantage of his mega spots and finishers, to a greater degree than Batista. But yes.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Jimmy Redman

[Dead Crow 370]

How many real 'turds' did he even have on PPV since that JBL match anyway? Maybe 2 or 3? And from what I can remember at least one of those was against Kurt Angle who around that time started to go downhill fast and hasn't gone back up since. The Cena feud was, I think, the first time an awful lot of people started turning against Angle thinking, you know, maybe this guy isn't so great after all. The backlash has been growing ever since.

Absolutely. I consider his feud with Angle to be the worst he ever had because Angle was simply.. well... poor. For a guy so amazing and diverse, he sure as hell couldn't connect with Cena like Michaels, HHH, Jericho, Umaga and Edge could. Hell, in 2002, Angle was better than all of those guys. In 2007, the guy is worthless garbage that lost his allure. Cena, on the other hand, has gone on to become a big star with a a long list of good matches and, as Beltmark said, main event matches that actually feel like a main event under his belt.

 

As for the "turds", since WM21, I'd consider his matches with Angle to be verging on turds but not quiet there (compared to his other matches), the 3-way with Booker and Big Show to be meh (he's not a miracle worker), and his match with Khali to be ok verging on good, but nothing deserving of a main event spot. Pretty much everything else has been great. His matches with Edge were all fine, his Umaga matches were outstanding, his match with Michaels was good, the HHH match was incredible, the RVD match was good due to Cena carrying Van Dam and working the crowd, the Jericho matches were great, and the 3/4-ways have all been booked perfectly.

 

Which is another thing - WWE do REALLY good multi-man matches. Cyber Sunday was the only real stinker I can remember to be honest, main event wise.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Absolutely. I consider his feud with Angle to be the worst he ever had because Angle was simply.. well... poor. For a guy so amazing and diverse, he sure as hell couldn't connect with Cena like Michaels, HHH, Jericho, Umaga and Edge could. Hell, in 2002, Angle was better than all of those guys. In 2007, the guy is worthless garbage that lost his allure. Cena, on the other hand, has gone on to become a big star with a a long list of good matches and, as Beltmark said, main event matches that actually feel like a main event under his belt.

 

As for the "turds", since WM21, I'd consider his matches with Angle to be verging on turds but not quiet there (compared to his other matches), the 3-way with Booker and Big Show to be meh (he's not a miracle worker), and his match with Khali to be ok verging on good, but nothing deserving of a main event spot. Pretty much everything else has been great. His matches with Edge were all fine, his Umaga matches were outstanding, his match with Michaels was good, the HHH match was incredible, the RVD match was good due to Cena carrying Van Dam and working the crowd, the Jericho matches were great, and the 3/4-ways have all been booked perfectly.

 

Which is another thing - WWE do REALLY good multi-man matches. Cyber Sunday was the only real stinker I can remember to be honest, main event wise.

 

Thank you, I was getting around to it. Cena's PPV matches since then:

 

2005

WM21: v JBL = crap/passable

Judgment Day: v JBL (I Quit) = great

Vengeance: v Christian v Jericho = good

Summerslam: v Jericho = very good (from what I recall)

Unforgiven: v Angle = good

Taboo Tuesday: v Angle v Michaels = good

Survivor Series: v Angle = very good

2006

New Years Revolution: v HBK v Angle v Masters v Carlito v Kane (Elim Chamber) = good

- - Edge cashes in MITB and wins belt = very exciting

Royal Rumble: v Edge = very good

WM22: v Triple H = great

Backlash: v HHH v Edge = very good

ECW ONS 2: v RVD (hardcore?) = great

Vengeance: v Sabu (Extreme Lumberjack) = ???

Summerslam: v Edge = very good

Unforgiven: v Edge (TLC) = great

Cyber Sunday: v Booker v Show = good

Survivor Series: Team Cena v Team Show = good

Armageddon: w/ Batista v Booker/Finlay = good

2007

New Years Revolution: v Umaga = very good

Royal Rumble: v Umaga (Last Man Standing) = great

No Way Out: w/ HBK v Batista/Undertaker = good

WM23: v Michaels = great

Backlash: v HBK v Edge v Orton = very good

Judgment Day: v Khali = ???

One Night Stand: v Khali (Falls Count Anywhere) = ???

Vengeance: v Orton v Lashley v Foley v Booker = very good

 

Mind, I havent seen the Khali matches and the Sabu match, which cant have been too good. I disagree with you about Angle too. I do think he's rubbish, but I didnt think his feud with Cena was too bad. And the matches were good, SS especially. Not special like some of the others sure, but not bad.

[Guest Jack]

The thing is with Cena, it's easy to say "Good, good, great, good, fantastic" etc., but look at the people who he has faced. The only people who I didn't like him against "recently" were Angle and Jericho. Both of who weren't good at that time. The matches were mediocre, cookie cutters. Think about the Khali work. The usual response is "Well, it's Khali", and whilst that is right, The Undertaker had a good match with him. Cena didn't come close to it even being passable. It was horrendous.

 

Carrying that on, stick The Undertaker in Cena's position. Against Michaels, Umaga, Triple H, Edge and all the rest, and who would have the better standard of matches? 'Taker. Put Cena in there with poor workers like Batista or Booker T, and I honestly think those matches would be poorer with Cena in them. Is he really that good or is he being made to look better than he is, because of the very high calibre of opponent he is in with?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like and rate Cena, but I think the praise is over the top. This whole "He hasn't had a bad PPV match in years" is a decieving comment. I think you could put several wrestlers in the ring with the guys he wrestled, and the outcome would be better. Again, compare Angle/Taker and Khali/Taker to the matches Cena had with those two. The gap between the two sets of matches is incredible, yet nobody really talks about The Undertaker being a fantastic wrestler.

 

You can't really argue with the quality of matches he is having, but when his series with Lashley and then Snitsky stinks, I expect the "Cena is a superworker" thing to die down. A truly special wrestler can have good matches with anyone, and I don't think Cena has proven that yet.

[Dead Crow 370]

The Angle matches were ok but the Jericho matches were perfectly fine. Summerslam had a hot crowd crowd, and the match lived up to expectation (which probably wasn't exceedingly high). It was also the first major incident of fans turning against Cena, so in that respect it was special.

 

You can say that Taker would have better matches with any of Cenas opponents, but of course he would. Undertaker is an incredible worker when he wants to be. For my money, he's never looked better than he has over the past 3 years. The difference is that Taker matches don't have the hot crowds or big match atmosphere that Cena matches generally do. Look at HHH/Cena from WM - had you put Taker in there, it would have been a great match, but the crowd wouldn't have reacted to it as well as they did with Cena because, like him or not, he generates one hell of a reaction. From that, Cena has learned how to play to the crowd subtly and knows how to time his spots almost perfectly. If you're looking for workrate and technical prowess with Cena, you've got the wrong guy. Cena's benefit is that he knows how to adjust his style for different opponents and has near impeccable timing for his big spots, AND he gets the all-important reaction that makes his matches feel important.

 

That's why his matches are so unique and special. Are they technically better? Of course not. It wouldn't suit a ROH show, put it that way. But what Cena does in terms of putting the punter into their seat and making a casual fan care about what he's doing, no matter who he is facing, is far and away above and beyond anything else in America right now. Cena is as close to an old school resurgience in his style than anyone I've seen anywhere. I used to see a load of Sting in him, and still do. But now I see an in-his-prime Jerry Lawler, and wrestling could do with more in-his-prime Jerry Lawlers right about now.

 

I also see some Hogan in him, but I can forgive him for that.

[TPIB 62]

I noticed the poll thing on WWE.com the other day and I found it amusing. It's also nice to see how aware WWE.com is about the history of the WWE PPV's.

 

I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who thought JBL/Cena from WM21 was crap. It was a short match, that was very reminiscent of most of Cena's matches. He gets dominated for a good portion of the match, then he comes back to win (when he's not "overcoming the odds"). Some matches I forget, but any match that is on a DVD I have, I have watched over and over and over.

 

While this thread is more or less random, here are some of the recent wrestling DVD's I have (keep in mind that I rent alot of WWE DVD's from Netflix):

 

WWE One Night Stand 2006 (with ECW's first PPV, Barely Legal on a seperate DVD)

 

WWE Vengeance 2006 (2-Disc Set)

 

WWE Royal Rumble 2006

 

WWE WrestleMania 21 (3-Disc Set)

 

WWE WrestleMania 22 (3-Disc Set)

 

(I'm hoping to get WM23 at some point)

 

WWE Backlash 2006

 

WWE Monday Night Wars

 

 

 

I have some more and some others from the Attitude Era, but I won't get into that.

 

Now, as I mentioned, I have seen these matches many, many times and I decided that, hey, why not? I might as well list the Cena matches and give my thoughts. I have that kind of time, why not? I skipped the JBL/Cena match from WM21, since I already commented on that one.

 

WWE Royal Rumble 2006

WWE Championship: Edge © Vs. John Cena

 

I was not overly impressed with this match-up. From Cena's overly extravagent entrance to the horrific-looking STF-U, this was one of the lower matches in the Edge/Cena feud.

 

 

WrestleMania 22

WWE Championship: John Cena © Vs. Triple H

 

I'll give the devil his due on this one, Cena had a good entrance for WM22 (not to say that Trips didn't have a good one). This was one of the more enjoyable matches in Cena's career. The Chicago fans completely crapped on Cena, which I found great. It even garnered Triple H to play to the crowd at one point. However, the match ended with the horrific STF-U again.

 

Backlash 2006

WWE Championship: Triple Threat: John Cena © Vs. Edge Vs. Triple H

 

A good match, in my opinion, but the big thrill for me was watching Trips lay out everyone in sight with a sledgehammer and leaving the ring, despite Cena pulling a fast one to retain. Much like WM22, I was hoping for a new champion, but I should know better.

 

One Night Stand 2006

WWE Championship: John Cena © Vs. Rob Van Dam

 

I'm a sucker for matches that are conducted under Extreme Rules by default (pretty much I'm a sucker for the old ECW) and this one was a classic all-around. I was thoroughly entertained by the hardcore ECW fans in attendance that not only refused Cena's shirt, but wiped their "rear quarters" with it, flipped him off, and threw it back at him. The commentators pointed out how I typically feel in regards to Cena, "these fans want no part of John Cena". I also enjoy matches where Cena loses his precious title.

 

Vengeance 2006

Extreme Lumberjack Match: Sabu Vs. John Cena

 

As you would expect from a match with Sabu and Cena, there were plenty of botches. Unfortunately, Cena won against the ECW Original. While I don't like either of them, the fact that Sabu had to pretend to suffer in the STF-U is pitiful.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Vengeance 2006

Extreme Lumberjack Match: Sabu Vs. John Cena

 

As you would expect from a match with Sabu and Cena, there were plenty of botches. Unfortunately, Cena won against the ECW Original. While I don't like either of them, the fact that Sabu had to pretend to suffer in the STF-U is pitiful.

 

Now I just watched this match (I think I have before anyway even though I didnt order the PPV), and it was actually a good match. The Lumberjacks helped, as did the crowd, which actually ended up behind Cena for once during that period. And the FU through the end of the table made me laugh. Not a bad match by my estimation, a fun spot fest, and considering Sabu's work since he's returned (not good), it was nowhere near his worst.

[Guest Twig]

WrestleMania 22

WWE Championship: John Cena © Vs. Triple H

 

I'll give the devil his due on this one, Cena had a good entrance for WM22 (not to say that Trips didn't have a good one). This was one of the more enjoyable matches in Cena's career. The Chicago fans completely crapped on Cena, which I found great. It even garnered Triple H to play to the crowd at one point. However, the match ended with the horrific STF-U again.

 

Yeah, nlow that you mention it I kinda think WWE planned to use that weak-sauce hype vid try and get him heel heat with the local crowd. Cuz frankly, when they compared a slower than molasses on a cold tin roof "freestyle" rapper in John Cena to the World's greatest and most notorious gangsta Al Capone, they really should've expected an even worse reception.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Twig

[Guest The Beltster]

I also see some Hogan in him, but I can forgive him for that.

What do you expect, the guy is a Hogan uber mark. I can see certain similarities to Hogan with certain things he does, he just doesnt do them as well, he is rough around the edges.

 

Cena does something way more important than backflips, takedowns and all that crap: he works people. There is nobody better than that in the history of wrestling than Hogan as has been proven for over 25 years, Cena is the closest guy to being able to work a crowd to Hogan, without question.

 

Flair marks and Angle marks can scream about workrate all they like, doesnt mean jackshit. If you can work people, your money.

 

To be honest DraVen, I'm not so sure why you have such a severe hatred for Hogan. He is what Cena is being pattered on, he's just much better. :)

[Guest Twig]

If you can work people, you're money.

 

You make it sound so dirty. :P And you certainly can't deny the lucritivity of Cena & Hogan, but it's all about what you like to see. Watching a man guide a big crowd of screaming people around is cool, but I mark for workrate (among other things) myself

Edited July 5, 2007 by Twig

[Guest The Beltster]

You make it sound so dirty. And you certainly can't deny the lucritivity of Cena & Hogan, but it's all about what you like to see. Watching a man guide a big crowd of screaming people around is cool, but I mark for workrate (among other things) myself

Oh no doubt man, I completely agree, its all personal preference. My point is, the guys who can work the fans are always the most successful, while the best wrestlers are usually favoured by smaller groups of fans.

[Murph 93]

TNA's new Sting action figure is really awesome. There's a video of it on the website, it's really cool.