Greek voters 'reject bailout offer'

[Kam 243]

Looks like it's a no from Greece...interesting times ahead:

With more than half the ballots in, results from a referendum in Greece suggest voters have decisively rejected the terms of an international bailout.

 

Figures published by the interior ministry showed 61% of those whose ballots had been counted voting "No", against 39% voting "Yes".

 

Greece's governing Syriza party campaigned for a "No", saying the bailout terms were humiliating.

 

The "Yes" campaign warned this could see Greece ejected from the eurozone.

 

Some European officials had also said that a "No" would be seen as an outright rejection of talks with creditors.

 

But Greek government officials have insisted that a "No" vote would strengthen their hand and that they could rapidly strike a deal for fresh funding in resumed negotiations.

 

Greek banks will reopen by Tuesday, they say.

 

Greek voters 'reject bailout offer'

[Guest Jayfunk]

I think they should send the boys around and take what they own if they don't have enough take land to that value

[Omega 354]

Surely europe now needs to dump them as soon as possible, as bad as it is for Europe to let another country fail they just can't allow Greece to thumb their nose at the help they got given to stay afloat. Everyone else had to go through terrible austerity, look at spain who were in pretty much as bad a predicament as Greece but just got on with it.

[Guest Jayfunk]

Well when they drop out the euro and the dracma is worth 10000 to the pound they will be begging for a bail out

[Paul 584]

Fuck sake...

 

So me and the other half booked a holiday to Port El Kantoui (Tunisia) starting on the 14th of this month. The hotel wasn't finished so last month they said we could change holidays free of charge, so we picked Crete. So from terrorists to not knowing what currency we're using as of the 20th. Its a massive improvement of the whole shooting thing, but still just crap.

 

 

Anyway, Greece sort out your tax and pensions systems.

[Guest Jayfunk]

They need to start paying some

[Kam 243]

I have to admit I'm feeling less sympathy for Greece the more you read up about this, stuff like:

While Greece gaining acceptance to the EMU in 2001, it did so under false pretenses as its deficit and debt were nowhere near being within the Maastricht limits. In 2004, the Greek government openly admitted that its budget figures had been doctored in order to join the Eurozone.

 

Suddenly, Greece was perceived as a safe place to invest, which significantly lowered the interest rates the Greek government was required to pay in order to borrow money. For most of the 2000s, the interest rates that Greece faced were similar to those faced by Germany.

 

At root, Greece’s fiscal problems stem from a lack of revenue. Much of this lack of revenue is the result of systematic tax evasion, and it is primarily the wealthier classes,including bankers, lawyers and professional workers, that are responsible. Generally self-employed, these workers tend to under report income while over reporting debt payments. The prevalence of this behavior reveals that, rather than being a behind the scenes problem, it is actually more of a social norm, and tackling the issue is easier said than done.

[Source]

 

The Washington Post has an article online here comparing Greece to Germany, one of the charts is pretty damning:

 

[etz 78]

To be fair though, that does sound a hell of a lot like some other places I can think of where it's also a social norm... Good thing most people here aren't like the people and institutions which keep their money "safe"...

[The Fury 65]

I won't be surprised at all if they get the boot and the Germans have hinted theyve burnt the final bridges.

 

I don't blame them saying no. Don't blame the guy in charge for trying but thay task ease the debt is going to take decades. It's a real shame. I believe they are the first nation In history to not pay the IMF bailout as well?

[Guest Jayfunk]

To be fair though, that does sound a hell of a lot like some other places I can think of where it's also a social norm... Good thing most people here aren't like the people and institutions which keep their money "safe"...

 

There are very few places with almost 90% uncollected taxes

[etz 78]

There are very few places with almost 90% uncollected taxes

 

I was referring to

 

"At root, Greece’s fiscal problems stem from a lack of revenue. Much of this lack of revenue is the result of systematic tax evasion, and it is primarily the wealthier classes,including bankers, lawyers and professional workers, that are responsible. "

 

Now it depends on how you define a place, but I'd say it's fairly common in the UK, and especially in London, amongst the top most liable entities (both companies and individuals) to avoid some or part of their tax burden. Not 90%, sure, but it's not a small problem.

[Guest Jayfunk]

It's not that bad in the uk. Alot of ways people avoid paying taxes are legal put money into an isa is don't to avoid paying tax on the earnings

[Omega 354]

Jay has a point here. There's a difference in clever accounting and simple state sanctioned tax avoidance.

[etz 78]

It's not that bad in the uk. Alot of ways people avoid paying taxes are legal put money into an isa is don't to avoid paying tax on the earnings

 

We're not talking about those, frankly, piddling ways. We're talking about corporate entities being "based" off shore, despite 99.9999999% of their employees working in the UK. We're talking about people "living" in Monaco or the Isle of Man. We're talking about "contractors" who are paid in foreign banks. We're talking about companies which just flat refuse to pay the tax they owe, and HMRC bends over and takes it in the arse like a little bitch (BT, I'm looking at you). We're talking about perfectly legal loopholes which cost us billions in tax revenue and are total bullshit.

 

We're talking about small businesses which have about a million little tricks to reduce their tax liability... a "training aid" = new 60" tv on the wall at home for the boss, new company phones every six months... the "old" ones are "broken" or written off and land up on someone's ebay etc, etc.

 

The Greeks may be more open about it, and it's obviously more common than it is here, but we're hardly squeaky clean.

 

But the funniest thing about this is why the Greeks got bailed out in the first place. Essentially, the Greeks were deep in hock to German and French banks.... so deep that allowing Greece to fail would have tanked the German and French economies. So they bailed Greece out to effectively bail their own banks out, and now the governments are going to be left holding the bag.