should we say goodbye to the WWE heavyweight titles????

[Guest silverG]

I dont know what other peoples feelings are on this matter, so let me just throw this one out to you lot and lets see what you have to say on the matter.

I firmly believe that the WWE heavyweight titles that are currently used, (and have been for as long as we can remember) should be a thing of the past. I mean lets be honest, it limits who WWE can raise to the top...... and why???? because of the weight class. Randy Orton for instance was a cool champ, (for all of five minutes.) but he looked kinda small for a HEAVYWEIGHT champ. (he just scraped in there.) If you look at TNA their top belt isnt a heavyweight title, thereby they havent limited themselves. They have had the truth ron killings as champ....... a j styles.... the truth ron killings, AKA K kwik was never anything more than a gloryfied jobber during his brief stint with WWE, and a j styles would never have achieved anything more than cruiser weight or if he was lucky intercontinental, if he had signed with vinces company. Even grand master sexay was used at top level whilst with TNA!!!!! so isnt it about time that WWE dropped the stigma of heavyweight = champ????????? WWE could utilise their roster and also future stars far more effectivly by dropping the "heavyweight" in the belts titles.

Edited September 25, 2004 by silverG

[Guest Kakarot]

Uh, first of all, only the Raw title has 'heavyweight' in it's name. Smackdown is just the WWE championship. And secondly, what difference does it make? It's not like you look at Orton, Jericho or Guerrero and say, 'they wouldn't look good as champion because it's got heavyweight in the name.' If you take it out, we all know it's the same belt, and they would look just as good as champions.

 

If you look at TNA their top belt isnt a heavyweight title, thereby they havent limited themselves.

 

Your condradicting yourself there. You've already stated that Orton doesn't 'look heavyweight' Therefore WWE aren't limiting themselves because there not taking the name as seriously as you seem to. Sorry, but this thread is completely pointless IMO.

[Guest Jayden]

yeah i don't really understand your post. the "Heavyweight" name in it has nothnig to do with it really. There are no set weight boundaries. That's the last thing limiting anyone small winning the title. That has more to do with Vince's love for the big guys.

 

Eddie's small, Benoit's small, HBK was small, Bret wasn't that big.

 

you talk about guys like killings only being a glorified jobber in wwe, and aj would have got nowhere other than the cruiserweight division. that is not because TNA have done something wonderful in letting smaller guys go for their titles. It's because TNA have to. Their roster is generally smaller. They rely on the smaller talented guys.

 

vince doens't need to. Killings was way down the card in the WWE because it's about 5 times as big as TNA. Just look at Jeff Hardy. You can take him out of the WWE, take him off mainstream tv for ages, adn he can walk straight into TNA at main event level.

 

It has nothing to do with whether WWE has the word Heavyweight in its title name.

[Fletch 204]

Uh you said TNAs top belt isnt there top belt? Uh last time i checked they dont spend time building up PPV main events for X Division title matches more than NWA title matches.

 

The NWA title always has been and always will be the biggest championship in TNA. its quite simply one of the most prestigious belts in wrestling history, well in its old incarnation before WCW and WWF. the X title isnt anywhere near as big. The X matches are usually way to short and not well booked.

[Guest Jayden]

yeah that's true, although i don't think that's what he meant. i think he just meant that a lot of smaller guys compete for it.

 

that said though there have been a lot of X matches that have main evented ppv's. they've had the x cup and a number of other x tournaments and stuff. plus early on they gave the x title matches a lot of chances to main event ppv's, i still rate the four way between psicosis, lynn, styles and low ki where they crowned the first ever x champion as perhaps the best tna match i've ever seen. just two or three ppv's later they have a 6 way to decide the contendership rankings for the title headlining another ppv. so they have certainly tried to push it much harder than any other promotion would.

 

it's just that once you replaced styles, daniels, skipper, low ki, red with sabin, kazarian, michael shane and petey williams it was never going to draw as well. It reminded me of the Cruisers in WCW. They had a division that had on its roster all at the same time, Juvi, Rey, Malenko, Jericho, Psicosis, Kidman, but once those guys wanted to move onto bigger and better things and got pushed beyond the Cruiser division what was left? Prince Iaukea and Lash LeRoux. It's just impossible to maintain. The Cruiserweight title went from being hugely recognised and prestigious to being a bit of a joke. Same for the X title. You went from having awesome workers to pretty average green ones once guys like Daniels, Skipper, Styles, Lynn etc etc got pushed beyond the X division. That's why I think that the early TNA shows are such must see tv because they showcase the X division in its golden era.

 

oh and shameless plug time but fletch, being the big tna fan that you are why don't you go and check out the WWA diary in my sig, it's loosely based around a promotion filling the gap left by tna's demise in the ewr game world. you might just like it. ;-)

Edited September 25, 2004 by Jayden

[Fletch 204]

HAHA thats one shameless plug Jayden lol i shall check it out sir

[Guest silverG]

The NWA title always has been and always will be the biggest championship in TNA. its quite simply one of the most prestigious belts in wrestling history, well in its old incarnation before WCW and WWF. the X title isnt anywhere near as big. The X matches are usually way to short and not well booked.

What are you talkin about!!!!! i never said anything about the top title not being the top title!!!! and i never mentioned the x division belt!!!!! All the guys you've mentioned...benoit..bret hart..etc.... WHAT!!!! are you seriously telling me you think these guys are under heavyweight???? benoit may have short stumpy legs but he still weighs in at top level!!!!! and as for weight classes not coming into WWE.... wtf!!! is there a cruiser weight belt for?????? :? As far as the smackdown title not including the term "heavyweight"...well fair enough.....to be honest i dont pay a great deal of attention to that particular show..havent much since roster split... and even less these days due to the fact that i really dont care about anyone there. All i was trying to point out was that, WWE would have a much broader canvas if they entertained the idea of dropping the stigma of only using heavyweight guys holding the belt...we would at least get a desent fresh crop of up and comers headed to the top. instead of the same old stale re-runs. Not once in WWE history has someone outside of the heavyweight bracket held the belt. (Orton just squeeks it.) Yes Vince is said to love the big guys...but isnt he also said to love the monsters?????? Vince doesnt seem to interested in monsters at the mo.......considering he has completely wasted the whole kane thing. (since he demasked we had a real monster in the making..and what happened....nothing.) So vince can no longer be considered to be thinking in the same vain. He is blatantly trying to create a new premotion....big monsters no longer seem to be his main thing.... its time to move on... fair enough TNA does have a small amount of wrestlers...but hey!!! what works works. the guys they've been using at the top level work!!!! Vince needs to take leaf outa their book and drop the "heavyweight stigma.

I dont see why my post isnt valid...i think its a perfectly valid point to raise.. im simply trying to point out a possible way to move forward... a way thats worked for another premotion. TNA is telivised!!!!! are you seriously telling me that if they wanted big huge muscle bound heavyweights for their shows, that they wouldnt have wrestlers cueing up around the block for the exposure???????? TNA use the peeps they use through choice, they recognise talent, and they use it.

this post is valid, as is everyones opinion...if you dont think its a valid point why dont you think of a way forward for WWE then smat arse!!! instead of be-littleing me. :devil

Edited September 26, 2004 by silverG

[Guest Jayden]

whoah there tiger. i'll try and respond to what you've written but it's hard to digest that points you're making so i'll leave it at this.

 

What you said in your first post was that they need to scrap the name "Heavyweight" in the title. What I was saying is that would be pointless. It is a heavyweight belt in name alone. there is no weight restriction. the fact that bigger guys get the belt is not because it's called heavyweight.

 

that said, as pointed out above many of the smaller guys have held that title. if you're good enough, more than likely you'll get there, small or not.

 

Now, you've said thta not one guy from outside the Heavyweight bracket has won the world title, and that Randy Orton only just squeaks it. Well, other than the fact that we've just pointed out a load fo them to you, take Chris Jericho, one of the guys we mentioned. Former WCW Cruiserweight Champion who went on to become the WWE's first ever undisputed World Champion when the wcw and wwf titles merged. If Orton only just squeaks it, and nobody outside the heavyweights has ever been given it surely what you're suggesting is that Randy Orton is the smallest WWE World champion in history which is quite frankly ridiculous. I won't list them again, but read further above for a list of World Champions smaller than Randy Orton.

 

TNA don't use the guys they use through choice. They use them mostly because they have to. They can't afford to pinch any of WWE's top stars so they feed off handouts from WWE releasing guys, and from signing guys from the indies and getting them to work shows. You say that most people would work for TNA and that's simply not true. Lots of people have turned down more permanent work with TNA to stick to their indie stuff.

 

TNA have lots of smaller guys, good for them. TNA also don't sell as many ppv's as WWE, get the exposure or tv ratings that WWE get, and don't make as much money as TNA get.

 

Would the likes of HHH, Undertaker etc want to be losing their world title to some midget like Amazing Red? Of course not, nor would it happen because Red is never good enough to be WWE champion. You forget what the WWE is about. It has never relied on the quality of its in ring stuff to make money and it's not about to start now. Sure they want good matches but they want good storylines too and people who can talk and have the right look.

 

What your first post said was invalid because there is no weight restriction.

 

what your second post said i'm not too sure as it rambles a bit and i'm struggling to make out exactly what points you are making.

 

I think you're saying that the WWE needs to learn from TNA or something. I like TNA, I'm a huge fan but I don't see much that they do that the WWE could learn from or take on board. Trust me, Vince is good at stealing ideas and pushing them to the world on a larger scale. If there was something there to pinch he'd do it.

Edited September 26, 2004 by Jayden

[Guest Kakarot]

Not once in WWE history has someone outside of the heavyweight bracket held the belt.

 

WTF!! Have you gone insane? What about Jericho, Guerrero, HBK, Flair. These guys aren't heavyweight. Just look at the size difference with someone like Hunter, or the Undertaker. If they boxed they'd be middleweight or something (Im not up to scratch on my boxing weights.) You can't possibly believe that Vince has held back guys from the Title because of the name. And the Heavyweight belt has only been in existence (In it's current form) for about 3 years. Before that it never had the name 'Heavyweight'

There are a lot of things that could be done to turn around WWE. That is not one of them.

 

this post is valid, as is everyones opinion...if you dont think its a valid point why dont you think of a way forward for WWE then smat arse!!! instead of be-littleing me.

 

I'm not saying your post isn't valid, I'm saying it sucks. And the first thing I'd do to help WWE is keep you from ever becoming employed by them. Oh, and Have a Nice Day. :)

[Paul 584]

All the guys you've mentioned...benoit..bret hart..etc.... WHAT!!!! are you seriously telling me you think these guys are under heavyweight???? benoit may have short stumpy legs but he still weighs in at top level!!!!! and as for weight classes not coming into WWE.... wtf!!! is there a cruiser weight belt for??????

 

Ummm, look at boxing, you can challange into a heavier weight class just not below. As for Benoit et al, they are technically cruisers! Remember Vince (and all promoters) tends to exagerate heights and weights. Benoit is looking at 220lbs, HBK less than that even! And CW status is 225lbs going by an old skit involving E and C.

 

Not once in WWE history has someone outside of the heavyweight bracket held the belt. (Orton just squeeks it.) Yes Vince is said to love the big guys...but isnt he also said to love the monsters?????? Vince doesnt seem to interested in monsters at the mo big monsters no longer seem to be his main thing.

 

 

LMFAO! Ummm, Tyson Tomko? Luthor Reigns? Big men dude. And remember that CW wrestlers have had shots, Rey Rey and Spike for example.

[Guest silverG]

OK..i concede...good points darkstar....spose the news bout Ray Trayler has made me wanna randomly bitch without thinkin... But amazin red VS undertaker..nah, didnt mean that small..lol Maybe dropping the "heavyweight" in the title is a bit of a naff idea, but I would like to see (like everyone) WWE properly using their talent. TNA do have a small selection of guys, but those that their using DO kick ass!!! Its nice to see someone of a j styles capabiltys being pushed. And Raven...well after his laffable stint with WWE, its cool to see the guy back on form. Spose i just seeing TNA through rose tinted glasses or something, because its fresh....WWE..well, the main guys i give a rats ass about are the new up and comers. (Orton, and shelton.) I dunno, WWE just isnt the same anymore..... BENOIT wasnt exactly the most electrifying man in sports entertainment, and undertaker!!!! the biker in the hat!!!!!! nahhhhhh...we shouldnt havta witness the deadman adjusting his trousers..... its little things like that that just seem out of charactor.....i dunno...WWE needs a kick up the butt...and yes i do think its gonna find its way eventually...its just been slow about it. So appologies to u peeps...my fave wrestler of all time has passed away, i needed something...anything to rant about. Feel free to tell me whenever I'm randomly ranting again. lol (wot dya know..we had a heated..nasty argument.. and we didnt even have to mention HOGAN. beltmark would be proud. lol.) Edited September 26, 2004 by silverG

[Guest Jayden]

no see, the point you're maknig there about freshening up the product is perfectly valid and fine. I just didn't agree with how you wanted to do it, by taking the word Heavyweight out of it.

 

You may well see TNA through rose tinted glasses, I probably do the same thing sometimes as they are the only alternative promotion in the United States. They have got some huge talents on that roster and for the most part they do use them well. But don't forget they still have their Erik Watts', Alex Shelley's, Johnny Divine's, Eric Young's, Michael Shane's, they have their guys who are either crap, or who will never be anything in this business just like the WWE does. I do think they use their talent better and are more comfortable giving decent pushes to guys like Styles who are smaller.

 

That said, I still feel that's largely down to neccessity than anything else. I think AJ's great but if you put him in the WWE he would look tiny compared to all their big guys. And his mic skills, or lack of them (his voice is awful) would really stand out.

 

I'm glad that TNA's different from the WWE and I hope it doesn't go the same way that WCW did back in the day. Back in the early 90's when the NWA became WCW they went from being a genuinely different promotion to simply WWF-lite. They became a poor immitation.

 

I hope TNA can realise that they don't need to do that to continue to grow. If they keep trying to innovate in the way's that they have done so far and they can get the booking right then they'll do well. Once they become too similar to the WWE there will be no going back. Once they've become that sort of promotion they would have to stay that way to survive.

 

I'm not saying TNA is completely the opposite of the WWE, sure there are a number of similarities but there are also enough differences to make them a genuine alternative for me. I just hope that it stays that way.

[Guest Slim Jim]

I would say that there isn't anything wrong with the heavyweight bit. Just because you wouldnt think Orton, Eddie and Benoit aren't really heavywieght like Taker, HHH, Big Show, Rock, etc. they are compared to the cruiserwights.

 

Oh and SilverG, keep on ranting.

[Guest silverG]

ye, good points jayden. Spose i would prefer it if the two premotions kept their differences. That way we will always have an alternative to tune into. (when WWE gets a bit lame we can simply watch TNA...and vice versa.) Fair point about TNA not really having too much choice in the matter of who rises to the top, but still nice to see that its working out for them none the less. TNA is a great premotion, and its going from strength to strength. Hopefully they will be able to eventually throw even more funding into it, and gain yet more publicity. the jarrets have put a lot of blood swet and tears into this venture, and it deserves to make it big. and as long as they dont try to directly compete with WWE, they should do just fine.

Again...sorry for the "heavyweight" rant.

Edited September 26, 2004 by silverG

[Guest Jayden]

yeah I really do hope that TNA sticks it out. I've had my doubts as to whether they will but the monthly ppv's and weekly tv shows should make a big difference financially. they were losing money fast so hopefully they can steady the ship. they do an excellent job when you look at how little money they really have to play with and I do hope they can keep going on from strength to strength

 

Oh and silverG while you're at it, if you're a big TNA fan *shameless plug, shameless plus* then why not check out the EWR diary in my sig, you might juts like it. It's loosely based around a new promotion trying to fill the gap left by the demise of NWATNA in the EWR gameworld. ;)