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From midcard to main event - all we need is a little patience...

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From Wrestling 101:

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Howdy folks for another edition of the Iron Jung. In my last column I focused on Chris Jericho. Literally days after I highlighted my love for his will he/won’t he approach to being a heel, they pulled the trigger on his heel turn. In a way I was very frustrated, as I felt there was significant mileage to be given to drawing out Jericho’s dilemma. However it was clearly inevitable that he would turn heel sooner, rather than later. Because that’s the thing with the WWE. Patience, in the last few years, has never been one of their strong points...

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> Iron Jung #8: From midcard to main event - all we need is a little patience

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List of things to cause a superstar to become a face:

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1.Being cheered more by the fans than their entourage

2.Flip-flopping during a huge war

3.Given the opportunity to wrestle for a title

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1) Heels get cheered a lot of the time (Edge, Santino at the Rumble, etc), so would you say they should become faces simply because they get cheered?

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2) What does this actually mean? Are you saying that someone should become a face because they keep changing sides in a feud? This is ridiculous... but not as ridiculous as...

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3) Turning someone face because they get a title shot. Read that back and tell me it's not stupid.

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Ted DiBiase, Jr. got a tag title shot on Sunday's PPV, so by using Franchise's theory, he should now be a face. Even just using Night of Champions as a reference, so should Mark Henry, Chavo Guerrero and Katie Lee Burchill.

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It's a seriously stupid reason by a seriously deluded poster.

Love you too DC.

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1) Heels get cheered a lot of the time (Edge, Santino at the Rumble, etc), so would you say they should become faces simply because they get cheered?

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2) What does this actually mean? Are you saying that someone should become a face because they keep changing sides in a feud? This is ridiculous... but not as ridiculous as...

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3) Turning someone face because they get a title shot. Read that back and tell me it's not stupid.

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Ted DiBiase, Jr. got a tag title shot on Sunday's PPV, so by using Franchise's theory, he should now be a face. Even just using Night of Champions as a reference, so should Mark Henry, Chavo Guerrero and Katie Lee Burchill.

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It's a seriously stupid reason by a seriously deluded poster.

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I guess I have to literally break it down to you what I said. All I did was list some of the reasons that I've seen over the last say 20 years why faces & heels jump fences from time to time. Thats all. Since apparently you didnt quite understand what I was saying put on a pair of reading glasses and read it again. Dismissed.:P

When does somebody turn because they get a title shot and nothing else?

Prime example Jung...

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1) Heels get cheered a lot of the time (Edge, Santino at the Rumble, etc), so would you say they should become faces simply because they get cheered?

Β 

2) What does this actually mean? Are you saying that someone should become a face because they keep changing sides in a feud? This is ridiculous... but not as ridiculous as...

Β 

3) Turning someone face because they get a title shot. Read that back and tell me it's not stupid.

Β 

Ted DiBiase, Jr. got a tag title shot on Sunday's PPV, so by using Franchise's theory, he should now be a face. Even just using Night of Champions as a reference, so should Mark Henry, Chavo Guerrero and Katie Lee Burchill.

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It's a seriously stupid reason by a seriously deluded poster.

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When does somebody turn because they get a title shot and nothing else?

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Lets say you're at Wendy's. You are hungary and you want something to eat. And you are absolutely starving. But the line is so very long you wont be getting your order in for at least 20 minutes or longer. But way ahead in line somebody allows you to cut in front of them for you wont have to wait. Comprende? :-0

But then the person behind you gives you a mint. Its OK, but the wrapping is annoying and a bit sticks to the mint. You eat it anyway.

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Comprende?

Lets say you're at Wendy's. You are hungary and you want something to eat. And you are absolutely starving. But the line is so very long you wont be getting your order in for at least 20 minutes or longer. But way ahead in line somebody allows you to cut in front of them for you wont have to wait. Comprende? :-0

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Thats the wrong analogy though.

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A similar one in wrestling would be, you turn heel so you're guaranteed the belt.

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I mean if your in a line, you're still gonna get a shot aren't you?

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Where as your saying, cutting out the waiting, which doesn't really add up.

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But I kind of get your idea, I mean you mean like The Rock at Survivor Series 98 right?

But I kind of get your idea, I mean you mean like The Rock at Survivor Series 98 right?

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You got it.:xyx

I still don't get why giving someone a shot at a title should turn them face.

it wouldn't unless they over came some sort of odds that they didn't cheat to win and the fans started to cheers them and the booker wanted them to be a face

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but that is not likely to happen

It was aimed at Franchise as he listed as his third "thing" that being given a title shot would cause a superstar to turn face.
Matt had a right to be mad and whiny over the edge situation. If it happened to you I am sure you would be whiny. Matt is nowhere as near whiny as Buff Bagwell.

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No, I'd lariat his a$$. That's what I'd do. Instead of crying over myspace.

Gonna go against the system, go against it in style !

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I jest, probably, but as I already stated it was a JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKE.

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It is easy to sway the light on any situation whether you support or are against it.

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I'm sure Matt and Buff have many a slumber party crying about how they're undervalued while eating ice cream and reading romance novels ;)

It was aimed at Franchise as he listed as his third "thing" that being given a title shot would cause a superstar to turn face.

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i know i was actually agreeing with you for a change

And Franchise complaining about face v heel is absolutely ridiculous, considering we've had face v face almost continually for over a year now.
And heel v heel is always crap, never draws, and the crowds all turn on it.
face v face is always better IMHO than Heel v Heel as you can either have a match based on respect or a pure wrestling match either way it can be good and also throughout the match as in Austin/Rock from WM17 you are wondering if one will turn. but in Heel/Heel match the crowd doesn't care about either man so a face turn would be unlikey and if happened would have zero reaction
I still don't get why giving someone a shot at a title should turn them face.

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And Franchise complaining about face v heel is absolutely ridiculous, considering we've had face v face almost continually for over a year now.

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Well Jimmy, when the glory days of pro wrestling was going on you were still in diapers. So you wouldnt know just how great it was to see heels fight heels and faces fighting faces on a daily basis back in the good ole days of the NWA. Of course its ridiculous to you now. The WWE currently doesnt have a clue how to make that formula work today. I woud love to see MVP try to one up Edge. Or Mr. Kennedy feuding with the likes of Edge of HHH.

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A title picture is only as good as the variety of challengers that surrounds it. Food for thought Jimmy.:xyx

Giving someone a title shot basically does turn people towards either side of the fence.(Especially at times when a G.M is involved) How else is a fire fueled? You have to put something on the inside to keep the fire ignited. Thats all I'm saying DC. In the words of Bugs Bunny:"What a maroon.":doh32:

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So if MVP gets a title shot at HHH he becomes a face then?

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It doesn't make any sense.

Well Jimmy, when the glory days of pro wrestling was going on you were still in diapers. So you wouldnt know just how great it was to see heels fight heels and faces fighting faces on a daily basis back in the good ole days of the NWA. Of course its ridiculous to you now. The WWE currently doesnt have a clue how to make that formula work today. I woud love to see MVP try to one up Edge. Or Mr. Kennedy feuding with the likes of Edge of HHH.

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A title picture is only as good as the variety of challengers that surrounds it. Food for thought Jimmy.:xyx

That is probably the most egotistical and arrogant comment you've ever posted.

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You seem to have a mental block about the "glory days", because all the memorable matches were heel v face.

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Flair v Steamboat

Flair v Sting

Tully v Magnum TA

Horsemen v Dusty Rhodes

etc

etc

etc

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You talk like you know everything, yet with your posts, you seem to be telling us that you know nothing.

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The biggest draws, and most memorable matches, in wrestling have always been face v heel. The only possible exceptions are Austin v Rock (WM17) Warrior v Hogan, even though I always think of Warrior v Savage as the better match due to the emotion brought forth with the feud.

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If you honestly believe that face v face and heel v heel would sell more than heel v face, you are sadly deluded.

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And please, quit with the attitude; you're only embarrassing yourself and heading closer to an out and out ban.

So DC wants to battle? Fine with me.

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That is probably the most egotistical and arrogant comment you've ever posted.

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You seem to have a mental block about the "glory days", because all the memorable matches were heel v face.

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Flair v Steamboat

Flair v Sting

Tully v Magnum TA

Horsemen v Dusty Rhodes

etc

etc

etc

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You talk like you know everything, yet with your posts, you seem to be telling us that you know nothing.

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The biggest draws, and most memorable matches, in wrestling have always been face v heel. The only possible exceptions are Austin v Rock (WM17) Warrior v Hogan, even though I always think of Warrior v Savage as the better match due to the emotion brought forth with the feud.

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If you honestly believe that face v face and heel v heel would sell more than heel v face, you are sadly deluded.

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And please, quit with the attitude; you're only embarrassing yourself and heading closer to an out and out ban.

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Yes indeed alot of those matches you listed were classic heel vs. face. But then there were matches like these:

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Midnight Express vs. Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson

Ricky Steamboat vs. Jimmy"Superfly"Snuka

Dr.Death vs. Barry Windham

Barry Windham vs. The Great Muta

etc

etc

etc

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Now in those matches it was face against face and heel against heel. And those matches indeed were good. If the WWE did this more IMO the wrestling fans would be treated to alot of great matches on top of the same ole good vs. evil formula.

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Plus i dont talk like I know everything about pro wrestling because I dont. I simply talk about what I've seen since I was a kid up to now. Nobody is trying to prove anything.(Except you) And you're right about face vs heel always draws the biggest. However, mixing it up every now and then can also benefit if pushed right.

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I mean how come two great evil geniuses cant go head to head to prove who is the best? Why does it always have to be either you're on this side or this side? Why cant it be whatever side you're on if you want to be the champion come get it? Thats what made Flair the greatest of all time:Fighting all comers from both sides of the fence. Cant say the same about Hogan.(Beltmark will come after me after this comment I'm sure)

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I didnt say that mixing it up would sell better than the traditional face vs. heel formula. I think if done right it could equal that sucess. Absolutely. Thats all I'm saying. And talk about calling the kettle black.

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You're telling me you're sick with my attitude? LOL!! I can hold a conversation with you without insulting you. Can you aloing with half of this forum say the same DC?(:roll) I'm supposed to take being beaten verbally by guys like you but the moment I defend myself I get slapped on the wrist. So back off DC with the soap opera theatrics. We are all adults here. For once lets start acting like it. We are here to talk about the hi's and low's of pro wrestling. Stop taking it beyond that please. Thank you. :good222:

Yes indeed alot of those matches you listed were classic heel vs. face. But then there were matches like these:

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Midnight Express vs. Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson

Ricky Steamboat vs. Jimmy"Superfly"Snuka

Dr.Death vs. Barry Windham

Barry Windham vs. The Great Muta

etc

etc

etc

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Now in those matches it was face against face and heel against heel. And those matches indeed were good.

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But if it doesn't sell better than the face v heel formula, whats the point of trying it?

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Face v face matches and heel v heel matches do happen now every now and then...but they are rarely ever the biggest draws. History tells us that. So why showcase them?

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I mean how come two great evil geniuses cant go head to head to prove who is the best? Why does it always have to be either you're on this side or this side? Why cant it be whatever side you're on if you want to be the champion come get it? Thats what made Flair the greatest of all time:Fighting all comers from both sides of the fence. Cant say the same about Hogan.(Beltmark will come after me after this comment I'm sure)

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2 evil geniuses can't go head to head 9 times out of 10, because who does the crowd cheer for? They are both heels, thus one becomes the face, defeating the point of heel v heel. Its impossible to work. Face v face only ever works, if you have 2 super faces, thus their fanbase is split ala Warrior v Hogan. But please stop goading Belty for absolutely no reason other than to lose yet another argument to him, I mean are you a glutten for punishment? Hogan did take on loads of people. But why is Flair taking on faces and heels the winning formula? Who made more money in facing a variety of opponents, Hogan or Flair? Thus which one is arguably the right formula? Thus you're talking rubbish again. Flair isn't the greatest of all time (in your opinion) because he fought heels when he was a heel, thats just utterly irrelevant.

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It doesn't have to bt this way, but only an idiot can't see that its successful and will always work better than heel v heel. The crowd always need someone to get behind, making heel v heel possible.

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And who cares about those matches you mentioned? How well are they remembered compared to heel v face matches? They barely even make the scale.

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If the WWE did this more IMO the wrestling fans would be treated to alot of great matches on top of the same ole good vs. evil formula.

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But they already are treated to a lot of great matches between someone they hate and someone they can get behind. Where's the point in having a sound wrestling match between 2 people nobody can cheer?

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