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Dave Meltzer's 5 star ratings system?


Guest ADC

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Do you rate it?

 

Thing is, he's about as qualified as it gets to have a ratings system and rate matches accordingly, along with people like Bill Apter, etc. but also, he's the only one who does, there should be others, for instance Bill Apter's 5 star rated matches would be interesting to know. But the thing it he's only basing it off of what he's seen, presumably, and for as long as he's been a fan, so accordingly it's all only mainstream stuff, starting from the early 80's, and he's clearly a mark for certain types.

 

For instance there's no British matches, for example, presumably he hasn't seen much of it, but surely by his system some Johnny Saint/Jimmy Breaks or Dynamite/Mark Rocco matches are surely worthy of the *****. So what do you reckon of it?

 

I guess it's like the hotel brochures ratings or something, like I said his opinion is probably about as valid as it gets, but it's somewhat limited because he can't view everything.

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Guest Jimmy Redman

His opinion is valid in the sense that he watches wrestling and has every right to have an opinion on it.

 

Beyond that his opinion isnt any more or less valid than anyone else's. He likes what he likes, just like anyone else. His ratings are interesting but they dont mean anything other than telling you how much one guy liked a match.

 

Its when people start using his ratings as "evidence" that a match/wrestler is good or bad, like Meltzer is the objective truth on it, that there's trouble.

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Guest Jimmy Redman

For anyone interested, here is a list of his five star matches (a more complete list than the one we usually see):

 

All Japan Pro Wrestling

* 12/08/84 Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk & Terry Funk

* 03/09/85 Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi

* 01/28/86 Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu

* 12/16/88 Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (All Japan RWTL)

* 01/28/89 Genichrio Tenryu, Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Yoshiaki Yatsu/Masanobu Fuchi (JIP)

* 06/06/89 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu

* 06/08/90 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta

* 09/30/90 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada

* 10/19/90 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi

* 05/22/92 Jumbo Tsuruta & Masanobu Fuchi & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada

* 05/25/92 Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

* 04/14/93 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi

* 07/02/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama

* 07/29/93 Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi

* 08/31/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi

* 12/03/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi

* 02/13/94 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Giant Baba vs. Masanobu Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada, & Akira Taue

* 05/21/94 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

* 06/03/94 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada

* 01/19/95 Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada

* 01/24/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

* 03/04/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

* 04/15/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue

* 06/09/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

* 05/23/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue

* 06/07/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

* 12/06/96 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama

* 06/06/97 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada

* 10/31/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi

* 6/11/99 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi

* 10/23/99 Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa

* 04/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi

* 07/05/92 Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

* 06/30/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Tamon Honda

* 12/05/97 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama

 

All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling

* 08/22/85 Lioness Asuka vs. Jaguar Yokota

* 02/26/87 Chigusa Nagayo vs. Lioness Asuka

* 12/06/87 Lioness Asuka/Mika Komatsu/Kazue Nagahori/Mitsuko Nishiwaki/Etsuko Mita/Sachiko Nakamura vs. Chigusa Nagayo/Yumiko Hotta/Mika Takahashi/Mika Suzuki/Yachiyo Hirata/Yumi Ogura

* 01/04/91 Bull Nakano vs Akira Hokuto

* 05/18/92 Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue

* 08/15/92 Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada

* 04/02/93 Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori

* 04/02/93 Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki

* 04/11/93 Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki vs. Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada

* 12/06/93 Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki

* 08/24/94 Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue

* 11/20/94 Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota

* 05/07/95 Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue

* 08/30/95 Manami Toyota & Sakie Hasegawa vs Double Inoues

* 09/02/95 Manami Toyota vs Akira Hokuto

 

Asistencia Asesorà a y Administración (AAA)

* 01/29/93 Rey Misterio Jr, Winners and Super Calo vs Psicosis, Heavy Metal and El Picudo

* 11/06/94 Los Gringos Locos vs. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon AAA When Worlds Collide; (hair vs. masks)

 

Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW)

* 9/22/95 Rey Misterio Jr vs Psicosis

 

Michinoku Pro Wrestling

* 10/10/96 Gran Hamada, Super Delfin, Tiger Mask, Gran Naniwa, & Masato Yakushiji vs. Dick Togo, MEN’s Teioh, Shiryu, TAKA Michinoku & Sho Funaki

 

New Japan Pro Wrestling

* 04/23/83 Tiger Mask I vs. The Dynamite Kid for the NWA Junior Heavyweight Title

* 03/20/87 Shiro Koshinaka & Keiji Mutoh vs. Akira Maeda & Nobuhiko Takada

* 09/21/89 Naoki Sano vs Jushin Liger

* 01/31/90 Naoki Sano vs Jushin Liger (unrated but “in another league” from AJPW’s ***** 10/19/90)

* 04/30/92 Jushin Thunder Liger vs. El Samurai (Best of The Super Jr. Final)

* 04/16/94 "Wild Pegasus" Chris Benoit vs. Great Sasuke (Super J Cup '94)

* 07/08/94 Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke

* 06/05/97 El Samurai vs. Koji Kanemoto (Best of the Super Jr. IV)

 

National Wrestling Alliance/World Championship Wrestling (NWA/WCW)

* 2/14/86 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA Battle of the Belts 2)

* 4/19/86 Sheepherders vs. Fantastics (Bobby Fulton/Tommy Rogers)

* 1/20/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA World)

* 4/11/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham

* 2/20/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (NWA Chi-Town Rumble)

* 3/18/89 - Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (“5 ½ to 6 stars”)

* 4/2/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls, NWA Clash of the Champions VI: Ragin' Cajun)

* 5/7/89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA WrestleWar '89: Music City Showdown)

* 11/15/89 Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" Match, NWA Clash of the Champions IX: New York Knockout)

* 2/24/91 Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham, & Sid Vicious vs. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner, & Scott Steiner (WarGames Match, WCW WrestleWar 1991)

* 5/17/92 Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, & Dustin Rhodes vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, & Larry Zbyszko (WarGames Match, WCW WrestleWar 1992)

 

Japan Women's Pro Wrestling

* 04/18/93 Bull Nakano vs Devil Masami

* 07/31/93 Dynami Kansai & Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki & Hikari Fukuoka vs. Aja Kong & Sakie Hasegawa & Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue

 

Pro Wrestling NOAH

* 3/1/03 Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa

* 7/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama

 

Ring of Honor

* 10/16/04 Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (ROH Joe vs Punk 2)

* 10/1/05 Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH Joe vs Kobashi)

* 3/31/06 Dragon Kid & Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs. CIMA & Naruki Doi & Masato Yoshino (ROH Supercard Of Honor)

* 3/31/12 Davey Richards vs. Michael Elgin (ROH Showdown in the Sun Day 2)

 

Smokey Mountain Wrestling

* 5/9/93 Rock & Roll Express, Fuller, Golden & Lee vs. Lane, Prichard, Kyle, Tazmaniac & Sullivan (War Games Rules)

 

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling (TNA)

* 9/11/05 AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels (TNA Unbreakable 2005)

 

Universal Wrestling Federation

* 12/05/84 Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada

 

World Wrestling Association

* 11/14/92 Terry Funk vs Eddie Gilbert (Texas Death Match)

* 09/22/95 Rey Mysterio Jr vs Psicosis

 

World Wrestling Federation/World Wresting Entertainment (WWF/WWE)

* 3/20/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match, WrestleMania X) WWF Intercontinental Championship

* 8/29/94 Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Cage Match, SummerSlam 1994) WWF Championship

* 3/23/97 Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission Match, WrestleMania 13)

* 10/5/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker (Hell in a Cell Match, In Your House: Bad Blood) WWF Championship

* 7/17/11 John Cena vs. CM Punk (Money in the Bank) WWE Championship

 

Of those, I watched 6/90 and 6/94 years ago and dont remember a thing about either except that I liked them. Toyota/Yamada '92 is pretty damn great. Benoit/Sasuke is really good too. When Worlds Collide is awesome and one of my all-time favourite old matches.

 

For my 80s project I have watched the '84 Tag Final (great sh*t), Jumbo/Tenryu (really great sh*t), the '88 Tag Final (AMAZING sh*t) and Tiger Mask/Dynamite (steaming pile of sh*t).

 

Watched both the '87 Flair/Windhams and enjoyed both although dont see the five stars in them. Sheepherders/Fantastics was a great brawl in clipped form and I imagine the full version would have told the whole story. The Flair/Steamboats are awesome, and I will soon watch the Landover 6 star one too. Flair/Funk was great but I thought GAB was better. I've watched both Wargames but cant recall them well enough to judge.

 

Joe/Kobashi was incredible, as was the Dragon Gate 6-man. Love both. Joe/Punk I saw too long ago but I did like it. Davey/Elgin was hit and miss for me and nowhere close to this level.

 

Unbreakable was awesome, I love it, but I dont think it was even in the Top 5 of TNA in 2005, nor do I think it was better than their rematches in 2006 and 2009.

 

Shawn/Razor again was too long ago to remember well. Bret/Owen is amazing and is one of my favourite oldies. Bret/Austin I have come to like a lot more than before but it still doesnt click with me. HIAC I enjoy. Cena/Punk is incredible.

 

In the end I dont think any of what would be my "five star matches" cross over with Meltzer's.

Edited by Jimmy Redman
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Guest The Beltster

He isnt the only guy to do star ratings. Wade Keller does them, as does that fat bloke from his website, I forget his name. And Jason Powell does at times.

 

Star ratings arent something that I pay attention to, we all have different tastes so its impossible to put much stock into them. I wouldnt have given Cena/Punk 1 star let alone maxed it out at 5, for example.

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Guest The Beltster
I find it really hard, as in almost impossibly hard, to enjoy a match, no matter how good, when it involves guys I really dont care about or dislike. I dont care about Cena and I hate CM Punk in every way possible, so even seeing Punk on TV irritates me. This results in it becoming just a sequence of moves and me watching it with zero emotional investment whatsoever and I end up just wanting to stop watching it.
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Guest The Beltster
Its not even so much disliking, its more just not caring. I really didnt care about either guy or their issues so it didnt mean anything to me. I watched it and I didnt think it sucked but it was just nothing, just a match. It didnt stand out as any better than other matches it was just longer with the typical WWE main event things happening. It was alright but I've already forgotten all about it.
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I watched Joe/Kobashi the other day, it was pretty good but the crowd ruined it, with their smarkyness. Also, it was all patronisingly welcoming of Kobashi, and Joe should have gone over.
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Guest Jimmy Redman

The crowd ruined it? The crowd made it. The people losing their utter sh*t is what took it over the top. It was one of the better ROH crowds I can recall.

 

And Joe didnt need to go over at all. Kobashi is Kobashi. He's not working in front of a couple hundred people in New York and jobbing. He was a god to these people.

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Well, the match was overrated, it was good, great even, but not a classic. Kobashi was the outsider and Joe was the homeboy. But also, the fact that they were in New York was probably detrimental, because of the crowd. All that "Kobashi, Kenta" pretentious nonsense was terribly annoying.
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Guest Jimmy Redman

Nothing to do with home vs away. Kobashi is a gigantic legend and Joe was not on his level. He didnt need to go over, working with Kobashi put him over enough.

 

The Kobashi, Kenta and the streamers and so on was ROH's doing, not the crowd. Pretentious, maybe, but ROH is always pretentious. They made him as big a deal as they possibly could, which is what matters.

 

I find that is one of the matches that actually lived up to all the hype when I finally saw it.

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Guest Canned Heat
I think his opinions hold a good bit of weight, since he has obviously watched a fair amount of wrestling. But if I think a match is 5 star, and Meltzer doesn't rate it 5, it won't affect my opinion of the match.
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Joe was a younger wrestler and on his way up and Kobashi was already getting to be a bit of an old man wrestler by then, Kobashi should have done the right thing and elevated him. Also, it ended with a clothesline, no big move from Kobashi, Joe stayed down for a clothesline!
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Guest Jimmy Redman
Joe was a younger wrestler and on his way up and Kobashi was already getting to be a bit of an old man wrestler by then, Kobashi should have done the right thing and elevated him. Also, it ended with a clothesline, no big move from Kobashi, Joe stayed down for a clothesline!

 

Joe was an American indy worker and Kobashi was the biggest Japanese wrestler alive. And Japanese stars do even fewer jobs than American ones. Joe was not close to his level and he should not have gone over. Joe was elevated just from working with him.

 

And you're kidding right? It was a Lariat and a Lariat is one of his finishers. That is his big move.

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Guest Jimmy Redman

Yeah thats right, minus **** as I recall from the other thread.

 

Which is patently garbage since it was a great match. Closer to **** than -****.

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Umm, Hogan vs. Andre was a bag of ****. Are you trolling?

 

A lariat and a clothesline are pretty much the same thing. Kobashi could have pulled out a big move for the big occasion, like the wrist clutch firemans carry thing that he does.

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