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Remember that the British government doesn't have to recognise any declaration of independence or demands for another referendum. Nothing has anything to do with what she recognises or doesn't. :)

If the UK government doesn't follow through with the promises for more powers then Scotland has every right (IMO) to have another vote. Otherwise it should be left alone for 20 years or so.

 

I mean in terms of campaigning for it, she can rile up the yes crowd as much as she wants whereas Salmond is now bound by the Edinburgh agreement to hold his tongue about it. The problem with the powers is that they never exactly quantified how substantial the powers would be. Technically, they could give us Scots something that would hardly be worth anything such as the power over stamps and still be holding true to their word. They made a lot of promises over taxation powers and stuff, but all that has a lot to go through and a lot of filtering to be done to it by the House of Lords and stuff.

 

The yes campaign up in Scotland is really riled up right now still from what I've saw, the minute it seems like WM is reneging on their word or giving us powers that they deem unsatisfactory (as subjective as that could be) they'll be right there kicking down No 10's door IMO.

 

Minor-conspiracy-theory; if the Conservatives stay in power, they have an ulterior motive not to less this die down. A strong SNP means a weak Scottish Labour, and a weak Scottish Labour means Conservative general election victories. If the powers that be are confident that Scotland will keep voting unionist, but also that the nationalists will keep making a gross, childish, toy-throwing fuss about it, it's to their benefit to keep this issue alive.

 

I've seen a massive drop in support for Scottish Labour since the ref. Mainly because the minute the No vote was secure, they started saying the exact opposite they were saying the entire campaign! One minute the NHS is safe, then after the results - it's in danger of privatization.

 

I don't regret my vote (yet), but it's not looking great for those who voted No. Hopefully WM can follow through properly and substantially, and we begin a move to a Federal UK in time.

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Who are you voting for on May 7th? 8 members have voted

  1. 1. Who are you voting for on May 7th?

    • Conservatives
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    • Labour
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    • UKIP
      0
    • Liberal Democrats
      2
    • Green Party
      0
    • SNP
      0
    • Plaid Cymru
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    • Other (State if you wish)
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I think we can pretty much say that Labour in Scotland are in as much danger of being irrelevant as they've ever been. They've really gone out of their way to wind up people that supported them. As someone said on Twitter at one point (who was a No voter) if John Smith had seen Gordon Brown cosying up with the Tories and celebrating a "win" with them, there would have been hell to pay.

 

The next election is gonna slaughter them up here. I'm not even sure that my constituency will vote them back in unless Jimmy Hood is publicly hung or something...

I agree, Labour can pretty much kiss any chance of gaining massive support up here gone.

 

I'm really concerned for what this will mean for the GE. UKIP's been getting support, but I doubt they will get enough seats to make a real difference or have a real influence surely?

General Election-wise, it's fantastic news for the Conservatives. Generally, if you take Scotland out of the equation, the Conservatives always do better. I think it's something like only four of Labour's 18 elections wins would have happened without Scotland.

 

It might to be as massive as it might previously have been though, because, whilst Scottish Labour voters become SNP voters, in the rest of the country, Lib Dem voters look like they're going to become Labour voters (as an ex-Lib Dem voter, I haven't decided which ship I'm jumping to yet, but I've decided I will be jumping). I think the Conservatives biggest worry will be UKIP taking all their crazy people, which, whilst good news for them morally, is bad news numerically, because the silent pretend-it-isn't-there British far-right has a looooooooooooot of crazy people just waiting for someone to follow.

 

So, weak Scottish Labour is good news for the Conservatives, but weak Liberal Democrats and strong UKIP sort of balances it out.

By the time the GE actually rocks up I expect the people in Scotland whoa re saying now they won;t vote Labour actually will when it comes down to it because they're the only party with any chance of getting into power and keeping us in Europe. A vote for the SNP will effectively be the same as voting for UKIP or the Tories because in the end the big decisions are going to be made by them if Labour don't get in.

 

At the moment people feel like their favourite striker from their football team has signed for the local rivals but they'll be back supporting the team in the end however pissed off they are right now.

As someone who voted no, I am at peace with how things have gone down politicly since the referendum. I could sleep peacefully if Scotland didn't seen another "power" for the rest of my life. The only thing that bothers me is having Nicola Sturgeon as leader, but there's not alot I can do about that until the next Scottish election at which point I will vote Labour for the first time in my life. Mainly in a, perhaps fruitless, attempt to get the SNP out, but also because I was pleased with how Gordan Brown and others dealt with the indy campaign.

 

As for the GE, that's a much tougher puzzle for me to solve. I'm reluctant to vote Labour at that level, but all other parties have flaws in them that it is really quite difficult. I'll need time to come to a decision nearer voting day.

 

I'm hesitant about giving my first GE vote to Labour, since hours after the No result came out they 360'd on everything they had said during the campaign to try and win votes against Tories. Not to mention the idiot Johanne Lamont who is in charge of Scottish Labour, she should have been booted the minute she said that 'not genetically programmed to make decisions in Scotland' comment.

 

By the time the GE actually rocks up I expect the people in Scotland whoa re saying now they won;t vote Labour actually will when it comes down to it because they're the only party with any chance of getting into power and keeping us in Europe. A vote for the SNP will effectively be the same as voting for UKIP or the Tories because in the end the big decisions are going to be made by them if Labour don't get in.

 

At the moment people feel like their favourite striker from their football team has signed for the local rivals but they'll be back supporting the team in the end however pissed off they are right now.

 

But, linking in with what I just said before, this rings true. A vote for anything BUT Labour is a vote for Tories (as I don't believe UKIP will ever get into power). Such a flawed political system, you don't want to vote Labour but have to because they're the only ones who have a chance of stopping the Tories getting in to power.

 

As a Yes voter, I have to say there's a majority of this "45" movement who need to get a life and move on.

 

Am I upset that we voted no? Yup. Did it bum me out for a few days? Yup... but that's how democracy works. Not everybody gets what they want. Time to move on and work for a stronger Scotland rather than fracturing it with this "I'M IN THE 45" nonsense that achieves nothing :/

 

This is true. I'm STILL getting hammered with links by pro-yes sites claiming how everything is going to go to the sh*tter, how we should get rid of our national anthem because we missed the chance to become a 'real country', and why every No voter was either tricked or scared into their vote.

I will generally vote Conservative at Westminster elections so that isn't really a concern for me.

 

I might not next year. As I said above I am far from decided where I'll go.

 

Johann Lamont is terrible though, no question. If its a choice between her and Nicola Sturgeon for the next permanent First Minister then I might have to move.

The only time I've ever voted Conservative is in the London mayoral election, and that's just because I hate Ken Livingstone, but I'm kinda tempted to now, just because they're the only party being even slightly realistic about anything. That's probably just the burden of being in power, but I think Labour have been a little too casual in just riding Tory unpopularity, and haven't really offered anything other than "We'll be nice to people, and then magic will happen and everything will fix itself". I'd take a nasty, unpleasant solution over nice, bit misplaced wishful thinking, which seems to be the only thing anyone else is doing. Other than UKIP of course, who seem to have magically combined the Conservatives innate meanness and ingrained Jeremy Clarksonness along with Labour's inability to say anything other than "This sucks doesn't it?".

 

If Labour say anything of value, I'll gladly take them, but, right now, the Conservatives are winning me over by default.

Oh God, UKIP... my folks are in the 65-75 age group, and they keep saying stuff like "That Farage man seems like a nice bloke, and when you listen to some of the stuff he says, he has a point" without actually listening to what he's saying. I may have to divorce them if it goes any further.

 

Although to be fair, my Mum never votes - she voted in the referendum and I think it's the first time I ever remember her actually voting. She usually says she ticks all the boxes as they're all as bad as each other... she voted no because she didn't want to have to move back to England if she became "a foreigner" :D

I'm blank voting in the next GE. I don't want to be so apathetic that I don't vote, because that doesn't mean anything, but I also don't agree with any of the parties on offer consistently enough for them to deserve my vote.

 

I'm not ticking anybody, just handing my slip in so they can actually see that I vote for nobody.

I have to say I haven't seen anything of a back track from Labour plus at the end of the day it's not actually Labour who will enact anything so it's a bit weird to blame Labour for Scotland not getting powers they thought they would.

 

The NHS is the main reason I will never ever vote Tory, having my wife work in the NHs and hearing how much stuff has already gone to private companies by stealth I can;t believe anyone who feels the NHS is a good thing could vote for them. I also find it unbearable that aprty works on the basis that the people to blame are always the people beneath you. I'm all right jack politics just doesn't sit well with me.

 

Labour in GE and Lib Dem at local because living in the south I've no chance of getting Labour in at local level.

 

To respond to Rudies "So I have to vote for a party I don't like to prevent a party I like less going in?" comment. No you don't. You vote for who you want in, if enough other people agree then your party gets in. That's democracy. If you find that you want to prevent one party getting in more then you want to vote for a particular party then that's simply the moral choice you make. You can eat the last rolo or give it to someone else, it;s just a choice.

There is a real issue in this country with an insufficiency of parties. Or, more accurately, the ones you do have are all a bit shit. And any decent, little parties that might theoretically form can't get a look in because the entire system is rigged that way. The idea that local representation has any meaning at a national level is beyond dumb. I'd much rather have parties having seats based on the overall number of votes nationally, instead of this 2 trick pony, first past the post bullshit which damns us to always having Labour or Conservative.

 

As the main parties stand :

 

The Conservatives are the most economically sound, and they're becoming more socially liberal, but privatization is idiotic. It's never worked out to be a good idea, not even once. It's why our trains are less reliable now than they were in Victorian times. They also have a habit of giving corporations and the extremely wealthy a pass to do pretty much whatever they want when it comes to tax. Mind you, so do all the others, the Tories are just a bit worse.

 

Labour.... does it even deserve that name anymore? This is a party which has a deficit in boom times, which tells you all you need to know about their economic policy and it's connection to reality. Also, big government is just stupid. They're also about as liberal as the Conservatives these days, so no points there.

 

Overall, I find the biggest frustration is the inherent limitation of the current system, where the choice is, frankly, between a douche and a turd. If we're counting smaller parties who will never get in, then add a queef (LiberalSoggyHanky) and a fart (ImigrationLoons) because they're not any better.

Oh God, UKIP... my folks are in the 65-75 age group, and they keep saying stuff like "That Farage man seems like a nice bloke, and when you listen to some of the stuff he says, he has a point" without actually listening to what he's saying. I may have to divorce them if it goes any further.

 

That's one of the great advantages of immigrant parents (the other is the ability to do convincing foreign accents), they tend to go down the old old-age/far-right road.

To respond to Rudies "So I have to vote for a party I don't like to prevent a party I like less going in?" comment. No you don't. You vote for who you want in, if enough other people agree then your party gets in. That's democracy. If you find that you want to prevent one party getting in more then you want to vote for a particular party then that's simply the moral choice you make. You can eat the last rolo or give it to someone else, it;s just a choice.

 

That's true in terms of morality and making the choice you want to make, but what use is that with this system? With FPTP every vote that's not a vote either for Labour or Conservative is pretty much wasted. Sure, the odd Green seat might get won, and the Lib Dems will always get a few, etc but in essence no other party has a real shot of getting influence in the HoC apart from the main two (lib dems I've heard are going to have a massive loss of support). Morally it's all well and good but it doesn't mean anything in terms of practicality. As Etz said, the system is screwed. Proportional Representation should be the system, but WM would never agree to it.

 

And yeah, I agree with Etz. Labour means well but is unrealistic and spends too much money, whereas Tories are morally questionable yet economically good for the country. Personally I don't want either of them, I'm so tired of the 'Big Three'. I actually think the support for UKIP comes from a general dislike of the big three parties more so than agreeing with their policies.

Scottish Independence

 

I'm going to vote UKIP and although I don't think they will get a majority, I hope they get enough votes to really put the fear up the other parties and make the stand up and do what the people want.

I'm going to vote UKIP and although I don't think they will get a majority, I hope they get enough votes to really put the fear up the other parties and make the stand up and do what the people want.

 

Isn't the only effect going to just be that it makes other parties morel like them? Like, UKIP doing well isn't going to make other parties nicer, or more honest, or whatever, it's going to make them more like UKIP. If UKIP do well next election, the social-liberalisation of the Conservative Party, which peaked with the legalisation of gay marriage under a Conservative Prime Minister, which is, historically, even recently, unthinkable, will die. Any good performance means the Conservatives will be more tempted to go back to the racist, xenophobic, homophobia of old, because that's what UKIP represents; old, scared, angry, hateful, vicious, grit-toothed Top Gear viewers, and any impact they have is just going to make people play to them.

 

It'll even put the willies up Labour, because it's like the perfect storm of blind anger. It's right wing (Conservatives) working class people (Labour). It's not going to be heard as "Hey, stop messing about!" it's going to be "Hey, stop being so nice to queers!". Also, people are, for the most part, ignorant about most things. The fact that most anti-EU sentiment is based virtually entirely on lies, paranoia, xenophobia and racism is good evidence that "doing what people want" isn't a particularly good idea on a subject as complicated as the European Union. Most British people want the death penalty, most British people were scared of swine and bird flu, back in 2006, British people didn't even want gay marriage legalised. Sometimes, there's certain issues where knowledge and education should override democracy, and international relations tends to be one of them. UKIP's push to democratise British foreign policy and make it a populist "who can lie the most convincingly" free-for-all is going to be disastrous. Literally disastrous as in "will cause a f*cking disaster" disastrous.

 

That's, of course, assuming that you think British politics moving back toward institutionalised isolationism and homophobia and ethnic paranoia and populism is a bad thing. If you like those things, a vote for UKIP is a pretty solid move.

 

I actually think the support for UKIP comes from a general dislike of the big three parties more so than agreeing with their policies.

 

I think there's a degree of that, but I think it's interesting that the far-right fringe tends to do better than the far-left fringe. I think, if it was really just about messing with the status quo, you'd see the SWP and Respect doing just as well as UKIP and the BNP, but you don't. I think it's because there's a massive, unrecognised, unaddressed far-right, almost Neo-Nazi-ish demographic in Britain that none of the big three parties cater to, because everyone's terrified of them. You can say things about the very questionable racial history of the Conservatives, but when's the last time the Conservatives made any actually, overtly racist public policy remarks? That's as far-right as main stream politics goes, the party that legalised gay marriage. I think, in Britain, there's not one talking for homophobes and racists and anti-semites and xenophobes and that whole crowd, and ask any gay or ethnic person you know about some of their experiences in life, that's a big f*cking crowd no one's speaking for. So, as soon as someone who's got whatever emotion it takes to be publicly hateful, like the BNP, like UKIP, like the National Front, comes along, they tend to do very well, because there's a massive chunk of the population that's being wilfully ignored by mainstream politics because their opinions are terrifying and overtly evil.

 

Think about it, if you're pro-immigration, or pro-globalist, or pro-gay rights, or pro-women's right, or pro-freedom of religion, you have, amongst others, the three biggest parties in the country (maybe the top four, including the SNP) at least pretending to talk for you. Even if you think the Conservative Party is privately more right wing than they admit, they're at least pretending. If you don't agree with those things, if you don't like immigrants, if you don't care about the rest of the world, if you don't like gays, if you don't like women, if of you don't like Muslims or Jews, no one in the mainstream wants you so, as soon as someone motivated almost entirely by hate turns up, they have that built in audience just waiting for them.

 

The good news, though, is that those people tend to be particularly stupid and self-destructive, thanks to the horrible, miserable, deprived personal life if takes to bread that kind of ingrained anger and hatred, and these parties tend to eat themselves alive soon enough, like a big racist snake. The only thing that makes UKIP slightly more scary is that they've got a figure head who's brilliant at pretending he isn't as awful as the people he represents, and the timing of the liberalisation of the Conservatives means they've got all the homophobic Conservatives jumping ship with some in-built respectability, know-how and publicity. They're a bit more advanced than the BNP, who were just the National Front in suits, sometimes literally, who were, intern, more advanced than the National Front, who were just every Saturday night racist, only slightly, slightly more sober, and with a shirt on. They're evolving. The next stage will be like a more advanced UKIP, in that they'll be able to hind their real feelings better, and then the crazy people won't like them any more, and it'll start all over again. But we'll all be gay, Lithuanian and Muslim by then, so it won't matter anyway.

 

EDIT: Oh, for the record, with the whole right wing fringe vs. left wing fringe thing, I also think the publicity from the media's constant "AAAAH! The Nazis are coming!" angle probably doesn't help matters. No left wing party ever gets the publicity, positive or negative, that an equally extreme right-wing party will get, just because I think Britain, thanks to the Second World War, has this in-built obsession with Nazis, in the same way that the Cold War has given America this in-built obsession with who may or may not be or is or might be a Communist.

Edited by John Hancock

Great post John. I think you hit the nail right on the head there, it's actually really scary thinking about it in that way. It actually really worries me, whenever Sky puts up anything related to UKIP on Facebook I always check out the comments and the amount of people there that believe we are being oppressed by the EU is astounding. Farage is a really dangerous political opponent.

 

Didn't the big three invite Farage to live TV debates? I can only assume that this is only so they can all gang up on him and attempt to make him look like a jabbering idiot, and if it is, I'm really scared that it'll backfire and give a surge of support for UKIP.

Didn't the big three invite Farage to live TV debates? I can only assume that this is only so they can all gang up on him and attempt to make him look like a jabbering idiot, and if it is, I'm really scared that it'll backfire and give a surge of support for UKIP.

 

I think so. They really should to be honest, the Greens should be there too, that's the game. Public debate murderer the BNP, so it might do the same for UKIP.

I think it was the broadcasters, the TV companies themselves that invited Farage onto one of the debates. Unless I'm misremembering the plan was three debates:

 

Cameron Vs Miliband

Cameron Vs Miliband

Cameron Vs Miliband Vs Clegg Vs Farage.

 

There was talk of the Greens and SNP considering legal action to be represented (especially as they have as many and more MPs respectively as UKIP). The Lib Dems were also insistent on being included in all three debates "to defend their record as a party of government". Their position previously and I don't know if it has changed was that they would only debate if it was Labouur/Lib Dem/Conservative like last time and wouldn't debate Farage.

I feel like the rule should be every party who's running candidates in every country of the UK gets to play, so, what's that, Labour, Conservatives, Liberals, UKIP and Greens? Nationalist parties can keep to themselves, I don't really see the point in giving a national platform to the SNP or the English Democrats or Sinn Fein or that Welsh one no one can spell when they're really just glorified local parties anyway.
She usually says she ticks all the boxes as they're all as bad as each other.
I agree with your mum, they're all as crooked and as full of bullshit lies and never-kept promises as each other. I never vote, nothing ever changes, nothing ever will. Waste of time even lining up to vote.

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