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Guest Matt

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Guest Matt

It was undoubtably the most contreversial night in WWE history.

The screwing of one of the greatest of all time Bret Hart.

There are so many questions left unanswered, if Vince McMahon really is a good guy like people say he is why did he screw Bret. Was Shawn Michaels in on it? was HHH in on it as he rushed to save Shawn from Bret.

Why would Earl Hebner a respected veteran do such a thing. And most of all why did so many important figures in WWE turn their back on Bret by nat siding with him - Jr, King, Taker, Austin, Bulldog, and even his own brother Owen. What do you guys think about the screw job on Bret.

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Guest Jung
I don't think anyone has ever thought Vince McMahon is a nice guy, and we all know Shawn was in on it.
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Read Mick Foleys book. He says Vince is a great guy. Also I doubt if Vince really was that much of a prick he would still have a promotion. Everyone worth anything would have jumped to WCW's big bucks back in the mid-nineties. HBK, HHH and even Bret wanted to stay with Vince through the bad times. So as a 'real' person I dont think he's that bad of a guy.

 

Anyways onto the actual screw-job. My view in short.

 

Bret is a moron and Vince did the right thing.

 

Why?

 

Well look at it this way, back then WCW was leading the way and having a WWF Champion jump to WCW while being an un-beaten WWF Champion would have made the WWF and the WWF Title look like crap. To many and most fans it would have seemed that Bret jumped to WCW for the better competition because he was too good for the WWF.

 

Vince didnt think that Bret had it in him to carry the WWF through the bad times. Although Bret was extremly over with fans, he wasnt really drawing enough to take the edge away from the WCW and bring the fans back to watching WWF TV. With ECW's ever growing popularity and how impressive the 'edgier' matches were becoming (HBK vs Taker - HIAC) Vince knew that the best way to direct the WWF into a stronger power would be without Bret. He knew he could (and did) make new talent into stars and give the WWF a brighter future without Bret. Which is why he didnt offer Bret a contract that was worth Bret signing.

 

Onto the actual night. Vince knew that there was no way that Bret would have put on a good performance if Bret was being forced to drop the title. Bret wanted to go out as the best. So Vince let Bret think he was having his own way by telling him he would win and a tournement would start the following night for the vacant WWF Championship.

 

Im sure everyone (HBK, JR, Lawler, Hebner) all knew what was about to happen that night. Only Bret the dumbass didnt.

 

When HBK locked in the sharpshooter and the bell rang the next few years in the WWF Changed, for the better.

 

HBK became a great heel. Vince became the bastard which worked so well during the Austin fued. And Bret was so bitter he never really shone the WCW.

 

Oh and the following night on RAW was classic when HBK announced that Bret Hart would be here tonight, I remember watching and thinking "Oh no. Shawn's going to get his ass kicked" and then the midget Bret came out.

 

Haha! :)

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Guest Matt
Originally posted by FTW

Read Mick Foleys book. He says Vince is a great guy. Also I doubt if Vince really was that much of a prick he would still have a promotion. Everyone worth anything would have jumped to WCW's big bucks back in the mid-nineties. HBK, HHH and even Bret wanted to stay with Vince through the bad times. So as a 'real' person I dont think he's that bad of a guy.

 

Anyways onto the actual screw-job. My view in short.

 

Bret is a moron and Vince did the right thing.

 

Why?

 

Well look at it this way, back then WCW was leading the way and having a WWF Champion jump to WCW while being an un-beaten WWF Champion would have made the WWF and the WWF Title look like crap. To many and most fans it would have seemed that Bret jumped to WCW for the better competition because he was too good for the WWF.

 

Vince didnt think that Bret had it in him to carry the WWF through the bad times. Although Bret was extremly over with fans, he wasnt really drawing enough to take the edge away from the WCW and bring the fans back to watching WWF TV. With ECW's ever growing popularity and how impressive the 'edgier' matches were becoming (HBK vs Taker - HIAC) Vince knew that the best way to direct the WWF into a stronger power would be without Bret. He knew he could (and did) make new talent into stars and give the WWF a brighter future without Bret. Which is why he didnt offer Bret a contract that was worth Bret signing.

 

Onto the actual night. Vince knew that there was no way that Bret would have put on a good performance if Bret was being forced to drop the title. Bret wanted to go out as the best. So Vince let Bret think he was having his own way by telling him he would win and a tournement would start the following night for the vacant WWF Championship.

 

Im sure everyone (HBK, JR, Lawler, Hebner) all knew what was about to happen that night. Only Bret the dumbass didnt.

 

When HBK locked in the sharpshooter and the bell rang the next few years in the WWF Changed, for the better.

 

HBK became a great heel. Vince became the bastard which worked so well during the Austin fued. And Bret was so bitter he never really shone the WCW.

 

Oh and the following night on RAW was classic when HBK announced that Bret Hart would be here tonight, I remember watching and thinking "Oh no. Shawn's going to get his ass kicked" and then the midget Bret came out.

 

Haha! :)

 

 

What the hell are you talking about.

For a guy who said he read foleys book you obviosly didn't read it that well. For starters Bret left because after signing a contract with WWF that was considerably less money than WCW was offering Vince had the nerve to ask Bret to take a pay cut.

Bret wanted Foley or Austin to take the belt. He was very co - operative with Vince and even offered several scenarios on how he could lose it.

But no Vince had to be an ASS an screw him.

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Guest Seabass

Bret was gonna lose the title to HBK i think (but not at Montreal (cause that was Bret's home town...so you can understand why)

 

Jerry Lawler says Vince is a freindly guy, but when it's comes to business, Vince will do what he feels is right, even if he makes enemies in the process. i guess that's why Vince screwed Bret Hart, for business reasons (and maybe personal)

 

WWE did start to finally beat WCW after the Montreal screw job, but what if Bret hart had not been screwed?. would WWE have still flourished, would Bret Come Back, would he have helped the Invasion angle? would WWE have more emphaisis on Wrestling....who knows

 

along with HBK (and the undertaker to a lesser extent), Bret hart was helping WWE staying alive...so i don't think Vince thought he couldn't draw

 

oh and as far as i know- only HBKm Hebner and Vince were in on the plot (Mick foley was outraged by the incident and almost quit WWE as a result)

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I dont think it had anything to do with Vince thinking he Bret couldnt cut it as champ anymore. When the bidding war between WCW and the then WWF was taking place over Brets signature Vince offered him a 20 year deal which I believe was for 3 more years as a wrestler and then as a manager/announcer (although i may be wrong on that). WCW actually offered Bret more money in the short term but out of loyalty to Vince, Bret signed with the WWF.

 

Apparently 12 months down the line however, Vince realised that he wasnt going to be able to honour Bret's contract so he actually encouraged him to reopen negotiations with WCW which he did and then signed a deal while he was still WWF champ. Now obviously Vince didnt want his champion turning up on WCW television without properly losing the title so Vince wanted him to lose it at Survivor series. Bret apparently didnt have a problem with dropping the title but he just didnt want to do it in Canada. He was happy to drop it the following night on Raw but refused to do it in Canada. Whether this was genuinely for the fans or for his own ego is a subject for some debate.

 

Anyway Vince agreed that he wouldnt lose the belt at Survivor Series and would instead drop it the following night on RAW. Now of course everyone knows what happened in the end. Bret got 'screwed' and i use that term very losely indeed.

 

You asked if Shawn was in on it?

 

Most definatly he was, although at the time he denied it he has since publicly admitted to knowing about it. Its also my personal opinion that Micheals took a lot of personal gratification from the whole episode. Micheals and Bret genuinely disliked each other both in and out of the ring and Im sure the chance to screw Bret in his last match really appealed to Micheals ego.

 

Was HHH in on it?

 

Im not sure but i would say probably he was yes. Wouldnt surprise me at all if him and Micheals were laughing and joking about it both before and after it happened.

 

Why did Hebner do it?

 

Simple. His boss told him to do it. Sure he probably didnt want to do it and didnt agree with it but he probably realised that if he didnt do it then he would lose his job. Lets face it Hebner still pays the price for that today as whenever the WWE goes to Canada he suffers endless "You screwed Bret" chants. Even his son gets the "Your dad screwed Bret" chants which personally I think is excellent :D

 

Also why didnt anyone side with him?

 

Well as Foley said in his book he did. He refused to attend the following nights Raw and was only convinced to return after lenghty discussion with JR. Owen also sided with him as well, Im not quite sure of the whole story but Owen was gone from TV for a good few months after the Montreal incident. As for other wrestlers, what could they do exactly? Not like they could make Vince change his mind and they would probably be jeopardising there own careers by siding against there boss.

 

And finally I dont think whether Vince is a nice guy or not is the real question here. Its, Is Vince a great businessman? and the answer is probably yes. At the time he did what was best for business and it paid off. Sure nowadays you do have to wonder whats going on up at Titan Towers but back then it was the right move. You find in general that nice guys dont usually make good businessman. They need to be ruthless and aggresive and not let personal issues affect business and thats what Vince did.

 

 

Finally I just want to say I realise that a lot of people will disagree with what Ive said and Im not saying everything Ive just said is fact. Its only MY humble opinion so please dont critque every little point ive made. Im not an expert, this is just my thoughts on events having seen what details have been put infront of me about the whole thing. I could be talking utter rubbish about the whole thing but thats just how i see it.

 

Didnt mean to go on for so long either, really must stop talking to MillionLiraMan :D

Edited by HSM
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Guest The Crippler
I don't think you can blame Hebner too much for it - he only found out about it ten minutes before the match. I still think Bret should have done the right thing and drop the belt properly but in saying that, the way it went down it has helped Vince far far more by him losing it in the way he did.
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Originally posted by Sharpshooter121

What the hell are you talking about.

For a guy who said he read foleys book you obviosly didn't read it that well. For starters Bret left because after signing a contract with WWF that was considerably less money than WCW was offering Vince had the nerve to ask Bret to take a pay cut.

Bret wanted Foley or Austin to take the belt. He was very co - operative with Vince and even offered several scenarios on how he could lose it.

But no Vince had to be an ASS an screw him.

 

Im pretty sure montreal doesnt come up in 'Foley is Good'. And im pretty sure I read it 'good'. Then again I didnt hang on every last one of Foleys words. Unless he was talking about nailing his wife.

[EXTREME SARCASM]Or at least my mother did to me when I was tucked up in bed at night.[/END SARCASIM]

 

Heres the version of Montreal I read at another website.

 

Bischoff calls Vince saying he wants Bret Hart when his contract expires. Vince tells him hands off and offers Bret a good contract (which offered less money than he was on at present) which is for 20 years. Bret says he'll sign the contract. A few weeks later Vince calls Bret and tells him to see what Bischoff is offering him as due to the poor finacial state of the WWF he may not be able to 'make good' on the deal. Bret calls Eric, who offers him a contract which is reportedly over 3 times what Vince is offering him. Bret says he'll get back to Eric within 24hrs to let him know if he will sign or not. Bret calls Vince, telling him although WCW have offered him mega money, he would like to remain in the WWF and was willing to settle for a deal which was less than the one originally offered. 24 hours later Vince didnt get back to Bret. Bret called Vince a few times within the day but only got the machine. I think about 10pm (over 24hrs later) Vince finally got back to Bret and told him he should take WCW's cash.

 

Thats why Bret decided to leave. Or what I read.

 

On why he wouldnt job to HBK.

 

He lost to HBK at WM to loose the title, and lost to him another time in between and wanted HBK to job to Bret. Which HBK abruptly rejected. Which Bret didnt take to well.

Also the match was in Bret's backyard. So he wanted to win. To cut a long story short

 

Anyhow Vince decided Bret will face HBK in his final PPV. Both refuse to do the job. Bret comes up with the idea that Bret wins then makes the title vacant on the following RAW and says his goodbyes to the fans. After much debate Vince goes along with it.

 

And the rest is history.

 

So thats what the hell im on about fool.

 

Also Vince was a freakin genius for screwing him. Without that the WWF wouldnt be what it is today. I believe that Vince felt that Bret didnt have what he was looking for with his promotion, which is why he basically told Bret to go to WCW. Bret is a bitch anyway, he really took the whole thing way to personal and held the grudge way to long.

 

Originally posted by The Crippler

I still think Bret should have done the right thing and drop the belt properly but in saying that, the way it went down it has helped Vince far far more by him losing it in the way he did.

 

Staright up.

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Guest Matt
I didn't say nothing about Foley is Good try reading Have a Nice Day then you will read the truth. Vince asked Bret to take a huge paycut thats why he left.
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Guest Jung

Lol FTW thats probably the biggest pile of baloney I've heard in a long while, if Bret didn't have what it takes, it would explain why he headlined WWF for 5 years, and is on the top 10 all time best paid wrestlers list. Plus that story paints Vince as the innocent.

 

Firstly Vince told Bret he couldn't afford the contract so, he told him to negotiate with WCW. Also technically Bret had every right to refuse, as in his contract it says the last 30 days, he has creative control over his programs. The agreed finish was to be a no contest, then Bret loses it to Shawn on Raw the following night. Even though, Vince's excuse was, he didn't want Bret double crossing him and showing up on Nitro the next night with his title.

 

Which would be great, had it been true. Bret's contract expired December 1st, so technically he wasn't even legally allowed to do that. Which makes Vince's screw job, all the more stranger. Technically being screwed by somebody who you had trusted and been friends with for the past 20 years, on national TV, in front of your home crowd, against your most hated enemy, I'd be pretty peeved too.

 

Of course Vince is an as, he wouldn't be here today, if he wasn't. He's completely ruthless, and does anything possible for business, its his way or no way, which probably explains why WWE is so lousy right now, because he won't listen to anybody else, and still believes he's right.

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Guest Craig Van Dam

I think Vince is an asshole for what he did if I was Vince I would have trusted Bret to drop the belt the next night on Raw but Vince was worried that Bret would show up on WCW with the title belt.

 

Somehow I think non of this would happen if Bret had just jobbed though Vince was Bret's boss and Bret should have done what his boss told him to do whever he liked it or not so both Bret and Vince were in the wrong I think.

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Originally posted by Sharpshooter121

I didn't say nothing about Foley is Good try reading Have a Nice Day then you will read the truth. Vince asked Bret to take a huge paycut thats why he left.

I never said I read Have A Nice Day. You said.............oh I cant be bothered.

And as I said above, yes Vince did ask Bret to take a HUGE paycut.

 

:hangs head:

Originally posted by jungmuta

Lol FTW thats probably the biggest pile of baloney I've heard in a long while, if Bret didn't have what it takes, it would explain why he headlined WWF for 5 years, and is on the top 10 all time best paid wrestlers list. Plus that story paints Vince as the innocent.

I wouldnt say anyone here is guilty or innocent. Its all a big show and Vince did what he thought was right for HIS show.

 

Bret may have done this and Bret may have done that, but if Vince thought that Bret was still going to be that big a part of his promotion then he would have offered him a half decent contract at least. He would have found the money. I truely believe that Vince thought that Bret wasnt needed anymore and thats why he basically told him to leave for WCW big bucks.

 

Answer me this, if Vince wanted Bret to stay and thought he had what it took to pull the WWF from under WCW's shadow, then why didnt he keep him or offer him a decent deal which Bret even said he would have signed, because he wanted to stay loyal to the WWF.

Originally posted by jungmuta

Firstly Vince told Bret he couldn't afford the contract so, he told him to negotiate with WCW. Also technically Bret had every right to refuse, as in his contract it says the last 30 days, he has creative control over his programs. The agreed finish was to be a no contest, then Bret loses it to Shawn on Raw the following night. Even though, Vince's excuse was, he didn't want Bret double crossing him and showing up on Nitro the next night with his title.

So basically Vince told Bret to go to WCW? Havent I said that before?

 

Im sure it was that after the RAW following Surivor Series Bret would say goodbye to the fans and vacate the title, starting a tournement for it and then he would go to WCW earlier than the end of his contract. Or at least thats what he said in Wrestling with Shadows, as his and Vince's settled agreement.

 

I dont really think that Bret would have turned up on Nitro with the WWF title, had he won at SS. But then again as we have all seen in the past few years. Bret is one bitter bastard. So Vince's excuse may have been warrented.

Originally posted by jungmuta

Of course Vince is an as, he wouldn't be here today, if he wasn't. He's completely ruthless, and does anything possible for business, its his way or no way, which probably explains why WWE is so lousy right now, because he won't listen to anybody else, and still believes he's right.

I wouldnt call WWE lousy now, but I do agree with you here. In a sense that he wont listen to some people, but I believe the people he is listening to are the wrong people to listen to. And I would agree with you also that he cant and wont be told he's wrong. Period.

 

Originally posted by Craig Van Dam

Somehow I think non of this would happen if Bret had just jobbed though Vince was Bret's boss and Bret should have done what his boss told him to do whever he liked it or not so both Bret and Vince were in the wrong I think.

 

You have one hell of a good point there.

Then again if Bret did what Vince told him to do then we wouldnt be having this convo right now.

 

Haha :)

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