WWE RAW Discussion Thread - December 3, 2012 from Greensboro, NC (#1019)

[Guest Jamster26]

Just re-watched it, and did Punk really say "these dismal three hour shows?".:lol Finally!!!

[dsrchris 190]

I didn't see a problem with the Punk promo, it didn't seem overly "smarky" to me. But then I'm a total Punk mark, so maybe I'm just exceptionally bias?

 

Is it sad that I was actually really chuffed because I knew Sandow's poetry quote was Keats? :lol

[Guest Jack]

Punk's promo was great and achieved what he wanted it to. The point of Punk is that he egotistical and has delusions of grandeur despite not backing it up in the ring. Him saying "I'm the best wrestler and draw the biggest ratings" is brilliant, and it works because it isn't true.

 

I've noticed people on the internet criticise Punk a few times recently for comments like this. He should he proud he's capable of working internet fans so easily.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Punk's promo fits with his whole delusional egotistical character, he thinks he's the best so what more do people want from him?

[dsrchris 190]

I think I'm developing a soft spot for Brad Maddox. The guy's a decent promo, and I love the idea of a character who's sole purpose is to get famous by any means.

 

Hey Fletch, did you notice him sneak in an "I am entertainment"? Remind you of anyone? :lol

[Guest Edgehead]

Just realised Christmas Eve is on a monday, does that affect Raw that week....anyone know??

[Guest Mattpow]

Father Ted kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse! :D

 

Loved the Father Ted reference! :lol

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Loving the fact that Dean Ambrose looks like a complete psycho:-D

[dsrchris 190]

Just realised Christmas Eve is on a monday, does that affect Raw that week....anyone know??

 

At a guess I'd say it'd be some kind of pre-recorded show?

[Guest ScottyB]

Probably a best of 2012 edition

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Punk's promo was great and achieved what he wanted it to. The point of Punk is that he egotistical and has delusions of grandeur despite not backing it up in the ring. Him saying "I'm the best wrestler and draw the biggest ratings" is brilliant, and it works because it isn't true.

 

I've noticed people on the internet criticise Punk a few times recently for comments like this. He should he proud he's capable of working internet fans so easily.

 

Its not about him saying things that arent true. He's a heel, he can do that to a large extent.

 

Its about intent and about kayfabe. He was butthurt about a Dave crack so he uses TV to cut a shoot promo to respond. Its an internet message board argument he's making, during an interview as WWE Champion on TV. Its lame. Not to mention he has no actual legs to stand on so its even more petty. "Wah wah I'm a huge ratings draw!" the day before the 2.5 rating comes in? Way to go. Its got nothing to do with Punk the character and everything to do with Punk the person.

 

More to the point, where exactly is the upside to this guy calling the show he's the champion of and all over "dismal three hour Raws"? What purpose does that serve? How is that helping your product? Telling the audience that the show sucks is moronic, sub-Russo behaviour and has no place. What is the point of hijacking a segment to make irrelevant shoot comments burying Miz? To make you feel better because you hate the guy? Again, its worthless Russo sh*t, making segments about "behind the scenes" nonsense that most fans have no clue about and dont care about.

 

I'm not saying he didnt come off as a good heel, because he did. But his aim wasnt to come across as a good heel, it was to shoot at Dave, bury Miz for kicks and try to rail against his once-darling internet because he's insecure about ratings. F*ck that. Plenty of guys have drawn sh*tty ratings and not felt the need to bleat about it on TV.

[DC 536]

Because professional sitcom writers would have never heard of Father Ted :P

American writers, which means (stereotypically) they are unlikely to be aware of anything outside the coastline of the United States.

[Guest Jack]

Its about intent and about kayfabe. He was butthurt about a Dave crack so he uses TV to cut a shoot promo to respond. Its an internet message board argument he's making, during an interview as WWE Champion on TV. Its lame. Not to mention he has no actual legs to stand on so its even more petty. "Wah wah I'm a huge ratings draw!" the day before the 2.5 rating comes in? Way to go. Its got nothing to do with Punk the character and everything to do with Punk the person.

Punk says he's the best wrestler in the world and fans say "eh, he's a heel, he's exaggerating". Punk says he's the best commentator in the world and fans say "eh, he's a heel, he's exaggerating". Punk says he's the best promo in the world and fans say "eh, he's a heel, he's exaggerating". Punk says he's a huge draw and fans think "PUNK IS AN ARROGANT ********"

 

I don't see it like that at all. He's just doing what heels should do, promoting themselves even when it comes across as delusion. I don't think it was a shoot comment at all, he's just working the fans who like to think they can't be worked.

 

I read this article a few minutes ago: http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2012/11/27/3699352/cm-punk-calls-out-dave-meltzer-continues-to-prove-hes-terribly-petty-and-insecure

 

In it, he says Punk has become bitter and insecure...and this guy thinks he isn't being played like a fiddle? :lol Punk is working him to a T. He has him wrapped around his little finger, and it's a credit to Punk that he can make people feel that way. Just because it's on Twitter, it doesn't mean it's not a work. Punk is working him, Meltzer and all the fans who reacted in uproar.

More to the point, where exactly is the upside to this guy calling the show he's the champion of and all over "dismal three hour Raws"? What purpose does that serve? How is that helping your product? Telling the audience that the show sucks is moronic, sub-Russo behaviour and has no place. What is the point of hijacking a segment to make irrelevant shoot comments burying Miz? To make you feel better because you hate the guy? Again, its worthless Russo sh*t, making segments about "behind the scenes" nonsense that most fans have no clue about and dont care about.

I don't think it's a bad think for Punk to bury everyone else, when that's essentially his character. He thinks he's great and he thinks everyone else is garbage. Where is the problem here? I don't see it. Maybe it'd be more beneficial for him to say "I'm the best but everyone else is brilliant" but it suits his character more to dismiss everyone else. I don't think it's going to make fans think "he's right, I'm turning over", I think they'll just think "God, this guy is a d*ck" and that's the reaction he wants.

 

I think a lot of people are being worked by him. When he was a face, you'd read nothing but praise for him as a person outside the ring and now he's a heel, many people are saying he is a d*ck outside the ring. Coincidence, or is he a brilliant worker who is working fans, who like to think they can't be worked?

[Guest Jamster26]

One thing that annoyed me about the Punk / Miz thing, is that saying stuff like "You know what Punk thinks of you BEHIND THE SCENES!, and referring to Miz by his real name, rather than his name that we ALL now, was just cringeworthy.

 

Punk is a great heel and his delivery is always top notch, which it makes it all the more annoying that he needed to resort to lame comments like the above.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Punk says he's the best wrestler in the world and fans say "eh, he's a heel, he's exaggerating". Punk says he's the best commentator in the world and fans say "eh, he's a heel, he's exaggerating". Punk says he's the best promo in the world and fans say "eh, he's a heel, he's exaggerating". Punk says he's a huge draw and fans think "PUNK IS AN ARROGANT ********"

 

Yes.

 

Being a great wrestler, promo, commentator is part of wrestling in a kayfabe sense. It is natural to boast about those things. Boasting about things outside of kayfabe has nothing to do with playing a wrestling character, its the person trying to boast about how good a worker he is in a shoot sense.

 

It would be like Hunter coming out as a heel and cutting a promo about "I am the best backstage politician in the biz, I get the bookers to put me over all the time!" Even if its true, even if he comes off as a douche and "thats good heel work", it has nothing to do with wrestling and you're basically just waving the "this is all fake and I want to talk about real stuff!" flag in front of everyone.

 

I don't see it like that at all. He's just doing what heels should do, promoting themselves even when it comes across as delusion. I don't think it was a shoot comment at all, he's just working the fans who like to think they can't be worked.

 

It was 100% a shoot. Dave Meltzer made a joke about his poor ratings to him, on Twitter, last week, and this is him getting his back up. There is absolutely no storyline or otherwise reason why he would mention ratings in the way he did. I think pretending it was pure coincidence is pretty naive.

 

I dont think it's a bad think for Punk to bury everyone else, when that's essentially his character. He thinks he's great and he thinks everyone else is garbage. Where is the problem here? I don't see it. Maybe it'd be more beneficial for him to say "I'm the best but everyone else is brilliant" but it suits his character more to dismiss everyone else. I don't think it's going to make fans think "he's right, I'm turning over", I think they'll just think "God, this guy is a d*ck" and that's the reaction he wants.

 

Again thats not the point. I'm not saying he should put everyone over and effusively praise The Miz. I'm just saying, the entire show he came off like he was purely interested in getting his own "shoot" comments in regardless of what he was actually supposed to be doing. Again, what justification is there for calling your own show "dismal three hour Raws"? Is there any reason other than thats what he thinks and boys on the internet can go "OMG HE SAID THE SHOW SUCKS AND HE'S SO RIGHT!"? (And, by the way, when you say things designed to make boys on the internet think you're so smart and cool, thats not exactly shooting for being a good heel.) Its just nonsense that he wants to say because he believes it, whether its appropriate or not.

 

Again, same deal with, as Jammy said, Heyman's "we ALL KNOW how he feels about you behind the scenes..." rubbish. We do? Really? Anytime you have to use that phrase you're really losing the plot.

 

Punk is a good heel. Heyman is a good heel. They can be perfectly good heels without irrelevant message board nonsense. If you take out every stupid internet/backstage reference from Punk's promos on this show you would still have a perfectly good heel. Nothing was added by him airing his own dirty laundry in the middle of a segment. Nothing was particularly hurt by it in the big picture either, I'm not saying it was. But as a person making the decision to do that, it appears solely out of insecurity and makes him look pretty bad.

 

I think a lot of people are being worked by him. When he was a face, you'd read nothing but praise for him as a person outside the ring and now he's a heel, many people are saying he is a d*ck outside the ring. Coincidence, or is he a brilliant worker who is working fans, who like to think they can't be worked?

 

You're kidding right? :P

 

Punk has always had the reputation of being a complete c*ck. But he's our complete c*ck so we dont really care. But if you really think that nobody thought he was an asshole before July 2012 you're absolutely dreaming.

[Burakiosaurus 129]

Out of all the millions who watched the segment, how many would have known it was a dig at Meltzer? Not a great deal, Punk knows that and maybe that's why he chose to do it on RAW.

 

He lashed out at Dave on a worldwide stage, he knew Dave would know he was getting at him, but also knew a huge percentage of people would have no idea. Good job Punk!

 

The message board stuff is a direct consequence of the internet being what it is nowadays. Using it to better yourself as a heel, get more material for promos etc.. can only be a good thing. I'm really enjoying his work with Heyman, and knowing the history they have together makes it even more satisfying to me seeing them on the top segments.

 

Saying that, I am a huge Punk mark, so I see nothing wrong with what he did and disagree with you totally, but that's why we have these boards right? To chew the proverbial fat and see/hear other people's points of view and disagree with them :D

[Maxximus 353]

Remember months ago when I said Punk is reinventing kayfabe for the internet age?

 

Jimmy is the first victim. Congrats Jimmy, you got worked, realized it and now mask your markish rage. :lol

[Guest Horowitz]

Remember when Miz was the most 'must see' wwe champion of all time?

I reckon he lied about that you know.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Remember months ago when I said Punk is reinventing kayfabe for the internet age?

 

Jimmy is the first victim. Congrats Jimmy, you got worked, realized it and now mask your markish rage. :lol

 

Oh God I'm such a markish mark! :lol

 

Lets be real, out of everybody on this board I am pretty much the first in line to happily admit that I am a mark and come off as one. Wrestling is better that way. In fact if anything I'm unhappy because I'm sitting here arguing about three lines of internet backstage bullsh*t when there were five hours of TV this week that I really enjoyed and would much rather be talking about.

 

Honestly I probably sound madder about it than I actually am if people think I am actually mad about being worked or whatever. Like I said in the beginning, Punk's first promo was on the whole rather good and held my attention for the first time in a long time. Its just the internet rubbish that makes me roll my eyes. Its hardly as though I'm sitting here thinking "Argh I hate Punk I want to see him get beat up!" I just think for him personally, being so butthurt about being a sh*tty ratings draw in public makes him look pretty lame to me.

 

People on the internet suddenly passing off shoot comments as "just good heel work you mark!" when Punk makes them is pretty hilarious though. Again, if Hunter, Russo, or anyone else who isnt our Lord and Saviour cut that promo there would be pitchforks. That was all I ever meant to say in the beginning, I was more than anything just curious that nobody had even mentioned it.

[Maxximus 353]

Jimbo, you're awesome. Without your remarks, insights and devotion my interest in pro wrestling would be greatly diminished. You definitely keep my inner fanboy alive. Kicking and screaming, but alive.