I've gone atheist - how about you?

[Guest Anime Otaku]

I the reason that Wicca and Buddhism appeal to me is that unlike Christianity or Islam they do mesh with what I believe already. Neither condemns gays and Buddhism allows pre-marital sex so long as the people are in love, I don't know the Wiccan view.

They also seem far more peaceful historicly and understanding of others than Christianity or Islam.

The way they promote respect for the planet is appealing too.

I agree with Burakio about looking at things from all sides of an arguement if you can.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Anime Otaku

[Guest Kanenite]

I like how your reasoning for being Atheist explains very well, when people say i'm atheist and I ask why, they'll say dunno can't be bothered or something similar. Although i'm not of a specific religon I believe in aspects, such as I think there is a god. I also respect the views of every individual and what religion they choose to follow, although parts of their religion I can think are pretty bizarre I wouldn't disagree.

[Nimf 324]

Anime-the Wiccan view of pre-marital sex is similar to that of Buddhism, then. Love is what rules it, basically.

[Guest A.C.]

@ Burak and AO's last posts. Looking at things from all sides is the only way to get to any sort of personal truth. If something works for you and doesn't fall apart when you shine the light of reason on it then more power to you. I'm not going to preach that I know it all.

 

Re: Burak's mention of the force-feeding of religion - I absolutely agree. Would you agree in turn that the teaching of religion to children is wrong? Before someone's critical faculties are in place enough to be able to form opinions of their own and come to their own conclusions, is it right to force feed them your society's baseless beliefs?

 

@ Kanenite - why not disagree? You understand that a religious (not a deist-type) of person believes that I'm likely to burn for eternity for my views? I reckon I'm allowed a modicum of debate with these people.

[Guest dpddave]

I think God can be a different thing to any one person. Be it artificial,super natural or whatever. I don't believe God is actually a person sitting up in Heaven on a golden chair though. To a baby its God is the Mother that feeds it. To a homeless man his God could be the person that provides him with shelter etc.

 

Some people need something to believe in too give them hope. Others like A.C. clearly don't.

 

I believe there is a God but it's different for everyone.

Edited December 12, 2007 by dpddave

[Burakiosaurus 129]

@ Burak and AO's last posts. Looking at things from all sides is the only way to get to any sort of personal truth. If something works for you and doesn't fall apart when you shine the light of reason on it then more power to you. .

 

it doesn't fall apart

 

 

Re: Burak's mention of the force-feeding of religion - I absolutely agree. Would you agree in turn that the teaching of religion to children is wrong? Before someone's critical faculties are in place enough to be able to form opinions of their own and come to their own conclusions, is it right to force feed them your society's baseless beliefs?

 

teaching and educating isn't wrong, telling them what to believe is wrong, which is what alot of parents do. i myself was taught that this is what we believe in, make up your own mind about it. Never was I forced, I have made my own decisions as I have got older re: my religion as i have learnt and experienced more.

[Guest The Beltster]

I used to be a staunch Atheist, but no more. I didnt believe in it all, thought it was all nonsense.

 

They say Prayer is the last homage of the desperate, or something along those lines. I'm not ashamed to admit there have been times recently where it has made me feel better to talk to the man upstairs on topics I felt uncomfortable or downright stupid talking to other people about.

 

Was anybody listening? Who knows, but it didnt do any harm to believe for that moment in time that somebody who cares about what you have to say, was listening to your problems.

Edited December 12, 2007 by The Beltster

[Omega 354]

However, an individual who believes in the afterlife is allowed to say so and has that ability protected in statute and in society. The atheist/agnostic side doesn't seem to be afforded that respect. I ask for reasons for belief I suppose, if I'm honest, because this lack-of-belief-system is still a work-in-progress for me - if there are any loopholes that god can wriggle into then it will deserve a re-think. A strong believer is never going to have their mind changed by a fallible mortal like me anyway. ;)

 

I think thats a misconception on your part. I don't think freedom of speech sides with religion it just protects peoples rights to believe in what they want without interference (see Germany v the scientologists!). As much as believers and fanatasists can say you'll go to hell you have the right to say that hell doesn;t exist.

 

I'm a total hypocrit about belief as I argue passionately for religion on one hand ( remember A.C other religious thread?) whilst not believing in it at all and I also believe that Scientology should be stopped in its tracks. I like to think I don't try and stop people believeing what they want but make it clear to them that I feel that what I believe is "the Truth" in at least as much as anything ethereal and existential can be.

 

I think even A.C has to agree that ecen the most existential ideas such as Descartes I think therefore I am still is not a denial in the possibility of a higher being. Indeed the argument goes that the reason ones own existance is the only PROVABLE truth is that no matter what any other power could do to shape what you perceive your own experience means that your own thoughts can be the only un-alterable thing in your universe therefore the fact that you think means you just exist outside of the powers of "god".

[Guest A.C.]

I think thats a misconception on your part. I don't think freedom of speech sides with religion it just protects peoples rights to believe in what they want without interference (see Germany v the scientologists!). As much as believers and fanatasists can say you'll go to hell you have the right to say that hell doesn;t exist.

 

I'm a total hypocrit about belief as I argue passionately for religion on one hand ( remember A.C other religious thread?) whilst not believing in it at all and I also believe that Scientology should be stopped in its tracks. I like to think I don't try and stop people believeing what they want but make it clear to them that I feel that what I believe is "the Truth" in at least as much as anything ethereal and existential can be.

 

I think even A.C has to agree that ecen the most existential ideas such as Descartes I think therefore I am still is not a denial in the possibility of a higher being. Indeed the argument goes that the reason ones own existance is the only PROVABLE truth is that no matter what any other power could do to shape what you perceive your own experience means that your own thoughts can be the only un-alterable thing in your universe therefore the fact that you think means you just exist outside of the powers of "god".

 

We humans are solopsistic by nature, certainly. Descartes said "I think therefore I am," whereas I like the reversal in my signature - "Sum, ergo cogito" or, "I am, therefore I think." My thoughts don't make me: I make my thoughts, through the way in which experiences and my genes and the chemistry of my brain process input from the world.

 

I agree - denying the right to belief is wrong. I will say that the world would be a lot better off if the juvenile vestiges of our medieval (and earlier) world views were shrugged off and mankind was allowed to stand on its own two feet.

[Guest Da Showstoppa]

Interesting response. You argue from incredulity (I.e.: "I don't understand so therefore how can it be true") but you still pray. Is that prayer in the sense that you're attempting to talk to the divine creator or prayer in that you're hoping really hard for something?

 

You're right that from a scientific point of view there's no way of knowing until we're dead. We can study what really exists and why religious belief exists in this life, though.

 

I pray because sometimes I feel I must do everything I can for someone - like my Wife's mother has Cancer, so I pray (talked to above) for her to be okay. I guess it's an attitude of what if I can make a difference? I like to think that IF there is an almighty being, they understand what's going on in a person's mind - so I feel reassured on that front.

 

It is a difficult thing to explain, I guess the truth is I have still to really make my mind up. Yet everytime I think about it, I end up more confused than ever. :doh32:

[Red05 343]

I'm agnostic, and I believe that if there is a God he'll forgive me for my lack of belief. What I do really is try to follow the ten commandments, to be a nice, generous, pleasent person etc. Perhaps as life goes on my views and beliefs will change, but right now I'm happy with my status. I count nothing out.

[Dead Crow 370]

I fear this thread is going to end, as alluded to earlier, as nothing more than the soapbox preachings of non-believers battling faith-driven worshippers desperate to defend their way of life. This is what causes world conflict. As far as I'm concerned, it boils down to perception and individuality.

 

I apologise hereafter, for this will be a detoured tangent.

 

The world is one singlular entity where we all see the same green grass, the same blue sky and the same clear sea. Yet we all take our own individual connotations about what they mean to us. We see the exact same things but we see them differently. We need different things and whether through childhood, intervention or otherwise, adapt our faith or lack-thereof into different avenues. It's little to us with "us vs. them" and everything to do with how you see and interpret things. At the end of the day, christians, jews, muslims, athiests, scientists, naturists, we all see the same thing: a world with rain, snow, sunshine, births, deaths, etc. What does it matter if some people believe that these are caused by "mother nature" whilst others believe that is it through a "God"? Surely, beyond the scriptures, they're the same thing on the surface. When scientists claim we emerged from the big bang, what makes it different from a Christian scientist claiming that God initiated the big bang and took pieces of it to create what we now know as Earth? I hate the idea that one day we'll all just see things in the same way. I applaud those who have faith in an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful higher power, whether it is God, aliens, mother nature or ourselves, just as much as I applaud those who believe that everything just "is". At the end of the day, we survive on blind faith. We say "but there's proof of science", but is there? I'm not fighting for or against the cause of science or any religion or theory, but our entire lives are built on the premise that we consume and believe what we want to, and what we are told. But we don't know these things. No one on this Earth has lived 200 years, so we're relying on "artefacts" to show us what did exist. I often wonder how factual these items are though. It amazes me how easy it could have been for life to have began in 1500 with a group of people inventing a complete history for us that never even existed. How insane, having been taught what we have, would it be to one day unearth the idea that a group of children invented a bedtime story about Julius Caesar that became a staple of every History lesson in the country? Or that Catholicism is a lie to cover up a hidden secret of Satanic virtues from years gone by? Just how much of the history of our Earth is truth and fiction? It astonishes me that we're so quick to condemn religions and beliefs, yet accept stories of history so readily. The argument "but they found bones of dinosaurs" isn't good enough for me. Who found bones? Who decided they belonged to dinosaurs? How implausible is it for a 100-year project to be set up by scientists of the 1700's to fake a set of huge bones and then publicise them as prehistoric creatures that roamed the Earth?

 

It was this that brought me to the realisation that I am a fool to insult anyone for having belief in religion or whatever they thing is the truth about the world. Does it mean I will believe the same? No. I allow them to think freely to themselves and wish for similar respect in return. I judge no one and wish not to be judged because I believe in the power of the human mind moreso than the Christian interpretation of God. But I fully respect anyone who believes as they do, as long as they have the fullest of faith in what they follow. After all, we've got faith in everything else and even then it falls under debate of interpretation. From the power of our governments to the meaning and feeling of love with a partner. Religion shouldn't be the only thing we take a good hard look at.

[Burakiosaurus 129]

pass the nurofen please

[Guest Al Stevens]

I like how your reasoning for being Atheist explains very well, when people say i'm atheist and I ask why, they'll say dunno can't be bothered or something similar. Although i'm not of a specific religon I believe in aspects, such as I think there is a god. I also respect the views of every individual and what religion they choose to follow, although parts of their religion I can think are pretty bizarre I wouldn't disagree.

 

The main reason i turned my back on all religion is because it really wasn't for me. I grew up in a household which never when to church (baring school trips) or anything, it's something that never appealed to me and never will. I would rather live my life to the march of my own drums and not to some "guild lines"

 

I am like yourself Kanenite though, if someone has there believes then i shale respect them for it because after all i dont think they would want a slightly overweight guy telling them that they are wrong and everything.

[Guest A.C.]

I fear this thread is going to end, as alluded to earlier, as nothing more than the soapbox preachings of non-believers battling faith-driven worshippers desperate to defend their way of life. This is what causes world conflict. As far as I'm concerned, it boils down to perception and individuality.

 

I apologise hereafter, for this will be a detoured tangent.

 

The world is one singlular entity where we all see the same green grass, the same blue sky and the same clear sea. Yet we all take our own individual connotations about what they mean to us. We see the exact same things but we see them differently. We need different things and whether through childhood, intervention or otherwise, adapt our faith or lack-thereof into different avenues. It's little to us with "us vs. them" and everything to do with how you see and interpret things. At the end of the day, christians, jews, muslims, athiests, scientists, naturists, we all see the same thing: a world with rain, snow, sunshine, births, deaths, etc. What does it matter if some people believe that these are caused by "mother nature" whilst others believe that is it through a "God"? Surely, beyond the scriptures, they're the same thing on the surface. When scientists claim we emerged from the big bang, what makes it different from a Christian scientist claiming that God initiated the big bang and took pieces of it to create what we now know as Earth? I hate the idea that one day we'll all just see things in the same way. I applaud those who have faith in an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful higher power, whether it is God, aliens, mother nature or ourselves, just as much as I applaud those who believe that everything just "is". At the end of the day, we survive on blind faith. We say "but there's proof of science", but is there? I'm not fighting for or against the cause of science or any religion or theory, but our entire lives are built on the premise that we consume and believe what we want to, and what we are told. But we don't know these things. No one on this Earth has lived 200 years, so we're relying on "artefacts" to show us what did exist. I often wonder how factual these items are though. It amazes me how easy it could have been for life to have began in 1500 with a group of people inventing a complete history for us that never even existed. How insane, having been taught what we have, would it be to one day unearth the idea that a group of children invented a bedtime story about Julius Caesar that became a staple of every History lesson in the country? Or that Catholicism is a lie to cover up a hidden secret of Satanic virtues from years gone by? Just how much of the history of our Earth is truth and fiction? It astonishes me that we're so quick to condemn religions and beliefs, yet accept stories of history so readily. The argument "but they found bones of dinosaurs" isn't good enough for me. Who found bones? Who decided they belonged to dinosaurs? How implausible is it for a 100-year project to be set up by scientists of the 1700's to fake a set of huge bones and then publicise them as prehistoric creatures that roamed the Earth?

 

It was this that brought me to the realisation that I am a fool to insult anyone for having belief in religion or whatever they thing is the truth about the world. Does it mean I will believe the same? No. I allow them to think freely to themselves and wish for similar respect in return. I judge no one and wish not to be judged because I believe in the power of the human mind moreso than the Christian interpretation of God. But I fully respect anyone who believes as they do, as long as they have the fullest of faith in what they follow. After all, we've got faith in everything else and even then it falls under debate of interpretation. From the power of our governments to the meaning and feeling of love with a partner. Religion shouldn't be the only thing we take a good hard look at.

 

Excellent post. Regarding the "who decides that these are dinosaur bones &c." parts of it - we ought to apply Occams Razor and include in our conclusions (all of which are transient and subject to change if new evidence comes to light) only that which is necessary to build a workable theoretical model of the universe. God just isn't necessary in the only falsifiable model we can come up with.

 

And you're right, it was always going to deteriorate into a non-believers v believers thread. I was hoping for a bit more insight but I suppose most people who believe just believe and there's not much thought - or much thought that can be put into easily understood language - to it.

[Dead Crow 370]

Excellent post. Regarding the "who decides that these are dinosaur bones &c." parts of it - we ought to apply Occams Razor and include in our conclusions (all of which are transient and subject to change if new evidence comes to light) only that which is necessary to build a workable theoretical model of the universe. God just isn't necessary in the only falsifiable model we can come up with.

 

And you're right, it was always going to deteriorate into a non-believers v believers thread. I was hoping for a bit more insight but I suppose most people who believe just believe and there's not much thought - or much thought that can be put into easily understood language - to it.

I think that in many respects, people do believe, as Occam's Razor suggests, in what they may believe in because it is just easier to do so. But it can be applied to athiests too, when they suggest that things "just are" and that everything else is too far-fetched. There's flaws to every line of belief in existence. "Science proves the big bang" - does it? Where is the physical proof? The photography? We weren't there, no one saw it, and if Jesus comes to Earth tomorrow, he's gonna be laughing in your face for a good ten years. "God made the world" - did he? Show me him. Half of you Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs and so forth don't even have the same image of your higher power? Religions don't even agree within themselves, let alone with anyone else.

 

The best way to try and understand as an athiest is to look at the idea of "good vs. evil" within the world. Let's say that Al Queda fly a plane into two towers in America. To us, that's evil. We can say it's evil because our civilisation is being threatened unnecessarily by outside forces who believe in something that we've always been told is wrong and against our social values.

 

Does that make us right?

 

Or are Al Queda in the right? Are the people in the streets of Iraq, burning their American flags and waiting for us to leave their country and get the hell away from them, the ones who really know the truth of good and evil? After all, we are the powerful nations who like to bomb other countries and exert our authority for selfish gains.

 

The answer: well, depends what side of the fence you're on. It's the same fence, and we can see the same things. We just see them in different ways.

 

I have questioned in the past whether Charles Manson is the genius whilst we're all mumbling idiots who got it all wrong. We've grown up in a society where murder of innocent people is wrong. Does that make Manson wrong because he violates that viewpoint? Or is he the sole voice of reason against a corrupt badge of authority? It's easy for us to say that we're obviously right. But of course we can say that. We're in the majority, and we've been brought up to think nothing else. And then we can turn and say "he killed someone, so we should be able to kill him." Right or wrong? Are we no better than he is? Are we a kill-when-killed nation? Is he merely suggesting we kill before being killed? That's not too different from a lot of our philosophies towards war, surely. So then are we, in the bigger picture, no different to Charles Manson? Are we the same people seeing the same thing a little bit differently?

 

So when you look at religion and put a muslim against a christian, who is right or wrong? Well, there's so much more to take on board than those simplistics, really.

[Guest MojoPogo]

I was going to be an atheist. But i dont even believe in that. Thats how cynical i've grown of religion. Or as i see it, a bunch of uppity god fearers trying to tell me how to live my life. Yes, people will disagree with that, but its MY point of view and im entitled to it. I know im damned already dammit!

[Guest Al Stevens]

Actually you know what this thread needs.

 

some class C drugs pink floyd and booze

[Dead Crow 370]

Weed and The Wall.

 

Interesting night on the forums...

[Burakiosaurus 129]

i'll take some tandoori chicken and coke zero whilst watching the Football baby. And i'll watch it with my Golly Wog doll, sporting a star of david, wearing a buddhist robe with a hitler moustache. oh, and it's name is Muhammed :D