UFC 118 thoughts/predictions

[Paul 584]

if these fights are actually going to prove something, there needs to be a hybrid of boxing and MMA. To give Toney a chance, they should have been stood up after the first lot of inactivity.

 

Interesting point, but I have to say that it fails anyway. The ground game often requires time to get into the right position, waiting for the other person to move the wrong way by even half an inch. Any hybrid rules that ignore that would then nullify BJJ for a start (look at the early UFC fights and see how long Royce Gracie did nothing on the ground before being able to slip on a submission).

 

The flaw wasnt in the rules, it was in Toneys utter lack of preperation, FFS I can stuff a takedown better than that, and thats no exaggeration at all. The guy knows he was almost certainly the better standing so his entire trainign should have been based around stuffing takedowns and knowing how to get to his feet quickly should he go down. He obviously didnt and paid the price.

[Guest Dusty Finish]

After the last two UFC's knocked one out of the park (and the recent greatness of King Mo-Feijao and Santiago-Misaki), the main saved this show from being a bit of a dud. I'm elated that, after Anderson Silva's shenanagins stole all of Frankie Edgar's thunder last time out, "The Answer" was able to make last night all about him, in spite of the freakshow underneath.

 

Whilst I'm a little loathe to call the main a definitive changing of the guard (Maynard is the worst possible match-up for Frank, stylistically), it did cement Edgar's status in the elite bracket. The defining moment for me was at the mid-point of the fourth, when Penn threw a high knee and Edgar swept his standing leg- the look on BJ's face was one of complete and utter helplessness. The top end of 155lbs is now finally looking fresh & invigorating again. I'm very hopeful that George Sotiropolous and Evan Dunham can make the step up in the coming months.

 

Toney was just completely lost out there.... like, Art Jimmerson Mark II.

 

It was completely pointless and if these fights are actually going to prove something, there needs to be a hybrid of boxing and MMA.

 

Trouble is, MMA is the only hybrid you're going to get. I don't think anyone of reasonable mind really bought into this as a definitive MMA vs Boxing eliminator. Toney wanted an MMA fight, so he got one. Despite the similarities in concept and premise, they're different sports, end of story. It's like sending a footballer into rugby union (both team sports, played on grass, with ball, but one restricted to primary, protagonistic use of one body area)... no rugby fans with any sense are going to be shouting the odds when Michael Essien is run ragged by the Harlequins pack. Additionally, I can't see anyone arguing that, with streamlined training and dedication to cross-discipline training, an elite and current boxer like Pacquiao- for example, I'm really not that into boxing- wouldn't enjoy a good level of success in MMA. Toney won't get another fight, and both sports can go back to being what they are.

 

Maynard-Florian was like an ITV3, Sunday afternoon movie edit of Florian-Sherk.

 

For a BJJ student like myself, Maia's control and transitioning on the mat is incredible- it's poetry how he opens up so many options for himself with minimal motion. That said, his domination of Miranda descended into downright laziness in places; Maia could've- and should've- finished several times in the second & third.

 

Marcus Davis is clearly in the twilight of his Octagon career, he's slowing right down. I prefer Diaz at Welter- his gangly frame, unorthodox striking & dangerous jits game make him an awkward opponent for anyone. His performance was the best thing outside of the Frank Edgar show.

 

The Boston crowd was horrible, booing anything that took more than 10-20 seconds to develop. However, while it was a watchable struggle of wills for 10 or so minutes on TV, I can appreciate how Winner-Lentz might've been a bit of an ordeal in a live environment.

 

Lauzon smashing Ruediger so comprehensively was some funny stuff. That tosspot Salter losing also put a smile on my face, although the fight was an absolute snoozer.

[ShaolinHandLock 73]

Spoilers, just in case.....

 

 

 

After reading the results earlier today, I see that Couture did exactly what I predicted and was hoping that he was going to do. :)

 

 

EDIT:

 

Frank Edgar vs. BJ Penn- UFC Lightweight title

James Toney vs. Randy Couture- 205lbs

Kenny Florian vs. Gray Maynard- 155lbs

Demien Maia vs. Mario Miranda- 185lbs

Nate Diaz vs. Marcus Davis- 170lbs

 

My picks.....

 

I think that Couture will take Toney to the ground and submit him.

 

At least, I hope so. :)

 

 

I see that I also did well on my predictions.....4 out of 5. :)

 

Edited August 29, 2010 by ShaolinHandLock

[Guest Jack]

Trouble is, MMA is the only hybrid you're going to get. I don't think anyone of reasonable mind really bought into this as a definitive MMA vs Boxing eliminator. Toney wanted an MMA fight, so he got one. Despite the similarities in concept and premise, they're different sports, end of story.

But the thing is, this fight was sold on being a fight between MMA and boxing. I do agree with your point and definetly agree that MMA is the hybrid between all martial arts, which boxing obviously is, but you can't sell a fight as being between a boxer and mixed martial artist, then have completely biased rules. It makes no sense. This wasn't seen as a boxers first step as a MMA fighter, it was boxing vs. MMA and as that was the billing, there should have been some adjustment to the rules to suit such a fight.

Additionally, I can't see anyone arguing that, with streamlined training and dedication to cross-discipline training, an elite and current boxer like Pacquiao- for example, I'm really not that into boxing- wouldn't enjoy a good level of success in MMA. Toney won't get another fight, and both sports can go back to being what they are.

I think that's probably true. Look at Couture. he was just a wrestler who eventually transitioned into becoming a well rounded MMA fighter. If he can add submission, GnP and striking to his game, then a boxer should be able to add submissions, GnP and wrestling to his.

 

I think there needs to be much more emphasis on boxing in MMA. I prefer the sport but I'm not being biased when I say that. It's a tremendous skill and the fact is, most guys are very poor at it, even elite level fighters. Considering how small the gloves are and how easy it is to score a knockout, I'm not such why it's not focused on more often.

Interesting point, but I have to say that it fails anyway. The ground game often requires time to get into the right position, waiting for the other person to move the wrong way by even half an inch. Any hybrid rules that ignore that would then nullify BJJ for a start (look at the early UFC fights and see how long Royce Gracie did nothing on the ground before being able to slip on a submission).

I'm not saying stand them up straight away, I just think that it could be a lot more even that it actually is. Like DF said, MMA itself is a hybrid, but if you're going to put a boxer against an MMA fighter, it makes sense to adjust the rules rather than use the standard UFC set.

 

And if you look at those Gracie fights, the rules have changed since then anyway. They aren't allowed anywhere near the time he got to find those positions, so it wouldn't matter if the rules were adjusted further to make it an even playing field in these types of fights. It's what Sylvia and Mercer did.

[Guest JC]

Just a short comment on 118 concerning James Toney - pretty f**king hilarious how he fooled everyone into thinking he was genuinely serious about this shit.

 

Frankie Edgar schooled Penn - the latter looked desperately poor and Edgar had it rather easy despite looking impressive himself.

[Guest Jung]

I'm not saying stand them up straight away, I just think that it could be a lot more even that it actually is. Like DF said, MMA itself is a hybrid, but if you're going to put a boxer against an MMA fighter, it makes sense to adjust the rules rather than use the standard UFC set.

 

But surely it makes more sense for the boxer to realise he's competing in an MMA match and actually spend some time gaining relevant skills for the fight. The fight said more about how much James Toney cared compared to what's wrong in MMA/Boxing fights.

 

And ultimately Toney chose to have a standard UFC set contest and should have known what the consequences were.

[Guest Jack]

But surely it makes more sense for the boxer to realise he's competing in an MMA match and actually spend some time gaining relevant skills for the fight. The fight said more about how much James Toney cared compared to what's wrong in MMA/Boxing fights.

 

And ultimately Toney chose to have a standard UFC set contest and should have known what the consequences were.

He's a boxer who will return to boxing though. The whole reason he was put against Couture, was to create a one-off, boxing vs. MMA spectacle. I see your point that Toney is at fault, but what can we expect him to learn? Any more than he actually did? He can't train for 3 years to be skilled and we know it's a one off fight, so to actually make it interesting, there has to be a compromise of rules. If he was skilled in wrestling and all that, it would lose the effect of being 'boxing vs. MMA' anyway.

 

Toney is at fault but you have to be realistic about his chances because the deck was always going to be unfairly stacked against him.

[Paul 584]

So what would you have done to the rules to make it fair for both sides?

[Guest The GS]

Make it a ladder match.

[Guest Jung]

He's a boxer who will return to boxing though. The whole reason he was put against Couture, was to create a one-off, boxing vs. MMA spectacle. I see your point that Toney is at fault, but what can we expect him to learn? Any more than he actually did? He can't train for 3 years to be skilled and we know it's a one off fight, so to actually make it interesting, there has to be a compromise of rules. If he was skilled in wrestling and all that, it would lose the effect of being 'boxing vs. MMA' anyway.

 

Toney is at fault but you have to be realistic about his chances because the deck was always going to be unfairly stacked against him.

 

But he knew it would be stacked against him, because he's joining UFC to fight a UFC match.

 

I don't know how they could meet in the middle without compromising what UFC is. There attitude should be "you want to fight for us, you play by our rules" and not trying to change to cater to James Toney of all people. UFC is becoming a dram of itself, so it should stick to what they do.

 

Nobody was expecting him to be amazing but it looked like he hadn't even bothered to learn anything. He was there for the paycheque and nothing else.

[Guest The Beltster]

Is anybody as completely un-interested as seeing Gray Maynard vs Frankie Edgar as I am? F*ck me, two guys who cant finish fights. Thats a 5 round decision fight in all its boring glory right there. That should be fun to watch.

[Guest Jack]

But he knew it would be stacked against him, because he's joining UFC to fight a UFC match.

 

I don't know how they could meet in the middle without compromising what UFC is. There attitude should be "you want to fight for us, you play by our rules" and not trying to change to cater to James Toney of all people. UFC is becoming a dram of itself, so it should stick to what they do.

 

Nobody was expecting him to be amazing but it looked like he hadn't even bothered to learn anything. He was there for the paycheque and nothing else.

But they did compromise what the UFC is because they hyped the fight as boxing vs. MMA. They didn't want Toney to be a skilled MMA fighter because it would go against what they wanted to achieve.

 

If Toney was given a soft debut, time to improve and had more to his game, that's completely fine. However, they knew he wouldn't have time, hyped the fight as a clash of styles and put him in a fight with very little chance. Everything was always going to be stacked against him at this stage of his MMA career, so it shouldn't have been hyped like it was, without something to even it up.

So what would you have done to the rules to make it fair for both sides?

Bigger gloves and a limit to the amount of time on the ground perhaps? Again, Mercer and Sylvia did it, so why not?

Edited August 29, 2010 by Jack

[Guest Jung]

But they did compromise what the UFC is because they hyped the fight as boxing vs. MMA. They didn't want Toney to be a skilled MMA fighter because it would go against what they wanted to achieve.

 

If Toney was given a soft debut, time to improve and had more to his game, that's completely fine. However, they knew he wouldn't have time, hyped the fight as a clash of styles and put him in a fight with very little chance. Everything was always going to be stacked against him at this stage of his MMA career, so it shouldn't have been hyped like it was, without something to even it up.

 

 

But Toney was in it purely for the money. And they didn't compromise it because the UFC is ultimately about giving the biggest fights with the biggest names and the biggest build, maybe even more consistently than the boxing world can now. It was irrelevant how skilled Toney was, it was his name and boxing pedigree that was important.

 

You have to look at it from UFC's point of view. They are in the business to make money. Of course they'll hype the fight as boxing versus MMA seeing as that are the fighters notable backgrounds and it sounds great.

 

To say it shouldn't have been hyped like it was is surely missing the point completely.

 

What should they have done said "oh it's Toney, who's a good boxer against the legend Couture who will obviously destroy him cause Toney's got nothing but a punch"?

 

To have what you want, you'd have to have a neutral setting/promotion without alterior motives. But saying UFC shouldn't have done what they did, and hyped it as MMA v Boxing, with UFC rules simply to make it a marquee contest, to make it sound far more grand than it actually is, is simply great marketing.

[Guest Rikidozan]

Like I posted previously, Toney didn't train seriously for the fight (unlike Bautista and Walker), and thus he got battered. I think the only route the guy can take is to accept fights with guys that can execute a great build-up; so basically fighters that are also great talkers. Toney will never get a title shot in the UFC, and probably won't resign when his deal ends.

 

Regarding the whole 'hype' notion...the UFC would've beeninsane to do anything other than hype the fight as 'Boxing vs. MMA', as Jung correctly said the UFC is in the business of making money, and the notion of 'Boxing vs. MMA' is a sure-fire money draw (regardless of what the actual realities of the fight are). Most of us knew how the fight would play-out, and that's exactly how it did.

 

The big question is, what's next for both guys? As I wrote above, the only thing that can be done with Toney is kind of 'gimmicky' fights, that are just about the single fight and won't go anywhere. Maybe a fight with Cro Cop? That'd draw, but Cro Cop is seemingly on a march to a 215lbs title shot if he beats Mir (a big 'if', I know).

 

I'll post more on Edgar/Penn later.

[Guest The Beltster]

How can you say Batista has trained seriously when he has never even had a fight? Lets leave our opinion of him and his training until he actually shows us something.

 

As for Toney, he signed a multi-fight deal but Dana has already said he wont be fighting in the UFC again, so that answers your question about where he goes from here: back to boxing.

[Guest Rikidozan]

I disagree with everything you wrote. We already know that Toney was woefully unprepared for his fight, and i'm willing to bet that Bautista will be much more prepared. As for Toney's future, he may go back to boxing for his next combat fight, but I think he'll be back in the UFC for at least one more fight.

[The Fury 65]

dana white has confirmed toney was a one off and unlikely to be seen in the ufc again.

[Guest Jack]

But Toney was in it purely for the money.

But that assumption is based on the fact Toney learned very little, right? If that's the case, then that's exactly what I am saying. You say he was in it for the money because he looked shit. I say he looked shit, because he didn't have anywhere near the amount of time, to put up a good fight against an MMA legend under MMA rules.

And they didn't compromise it because the UFC is ultimately about giving the biggest fights with the biggest names and the biggest build, maybe even more consistently than the boxing world can now. It was irrelevant how skilled Toney was, it was his name and boxing pedigree that was important.

What's that got to do with anything?

 

And they did compromise because UFC by hyping the fight as boxer vs. MMA! If it was UFC 3, then fair enough, but it wasn't. The UFC is a brand of MMA and every single PPV is sold on being an MMA show. They compromised that by putting a boxer in the biggest fight of the night. if the fans wanted to see dog fighting, they could two bull terriers in the cage and, by your opinion that the UFC is about giving the fans what they want and the biggest fights, it wouldn't compromise what the UFC is.

 

Oh and didn't Dana compromise his "no freakshow" stance? This is exactly what the fight was, though it wouldn't have been, had the rules been altered to make it an even fight.

You have to look at it from UFC's point of view. They are in the business to make money. Of course they'll hype the fight as boxing versus MMA seeing as that are the fighters notable backgrounds and it sounds great.

 

To say it shouldn't have been hyped like it was is surely missing the point completely.

I'm not flat out saying it shouldn't have been hyped that way at all. I do think it should have been, but I think it's completely ridiculous to hype the fight as boxing vs. MMA and then have the fight under MMA rules.

To have what you want, you'd have to have a neutral setting/promotion without alterior motives. But saying UFC shouldn't have done what they did, and hyped it as MMA v Boxing, with UFC rules simply to make it a marquee contest, to make it sound far more grand than it actually is, is simply great marketing.

I don't fault the UFC for doing it. They wanted MMA to beat boxing decisively, and rightfully so from their standpoint, but I think it should have been a much better spectacle than it was. Assuming you adjusted the rules a lot, so it ended up being a close, entertaining fight, wouldn't that have been much more beneficial to the UFC? They shot themselves in the foot by making it so one-sided because it didn't answer any questions about "boxing vs. MMA". It just proved that an MMA fighter beats a boxer in conditions massively suiting him.

[Guest Jack]

I disagree with everything you wrote. We already know that Toney was woefully unprepared for his fight, and i'm willing to bet that Bautista will be much more prepared. As for Toney's future, he may go back to boxing for his next combat fight, but I think he'll be back in the UFC for at least one more fight.

He was unprepared but he was about as prepared as a fighter can be, in such short time. Anyone expecting Toney to look better than he did, was wrong. All reports in training say he was going good but that shows the difference between training and a real fight.

[Guest The Beltster]

I disagree with everything you wrote. We already know that Toney was woefully unprepared for his fight, and i'm willing to bet that Bautista will be much more prepared.

Disagree all you like, we havent seen Batista fight yet so you cant say he is more prepared, you dont know if he is or isnt. UFC put out video packages that made people believe Toney was prepared and had put alot of effort into his training, and when he got in the cage, he didnt have a clue. Nobody knows how prepared a fighter is until he gets in there and shows what he's got, and Batista hasnt shown us anything yet.

 

As for Toney's future, he may go back to boxing for his next combat fight, but I think he'll be back in the UFC for at least one more fight.

Did you even read what I just wrote? Dana White said Toney is NOT fighting in the UFC again.