Who screwed who?

[Guest Ed_666]

Originally posted by draVen

Same can be said for Shawn, MANY MANY MANY time during his reign.

 

Which times were these? He jobbed the belt to Sid, and was going to job the belt to Mankind (until Vince changed the ending at ringside). The only one people *claim* he refused to job was WM XIII, but that's only a rumour.

 

Originally posted by draVen

Think this way - if Vince told you that we were coming to England in front of your homefans, to say Birmingham, and you were going to lose that belt to your own finishing move to the guy who refused to job to you all throughout the past two years after you put him over the year before, made personal shoot comments on TV accusing you of cheating on your wife, who you have a huge personal rivalry with, and you had a creative control clause in your contract, you're telling me you'd just walk in, do the job and leave. I don't buy that at all.

 

It's not exactly the same, since the WWE hardly come to England, whereas they do quite a lot of shows in Canada. Also Canada is about 20 times as big as England, so it's not like beaing anywhere near your home town.

 

Also, you're assuming Shawn did all those things when we don't know for sure he did.

 

Plus, he wasn't going to lose with his own finishing move, that only happened because of the screwjob.

 

Another thing to remember is William Regal DID job the European title two years running in England to people like Crash Holly!! And he did it!

 

But in answer to your question, maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't, it depends how professional I was. HOWEVER, if DID refuse to job, I would realise later that I WAS unprofessional to do it, and that Vince was right to screw me. I wouldn't keep going on about it forever.

 

 

Originally posted by draVen

But at the end of the day, both were wrong. Bret could have been a little more understanding of Vinces situation, and Vince had no need to screw Bret the way he did, and Vince did screw Bret big time. From telling him to sign for WCW, to embarrasing him in his home country.

 

That's the thing though, Bret left him no choice. Anything else would have been a HUGE risk to the company, and balancing it on Bischoff and Bret's word. If they'd gone back on it, or Bret had been talked into it, we may well have seen the WWF title dropped into a bin on Nitro.

 

If you were Vince would you have risked the future of your company on the word of a couple of guys who were you big rival and his employee? Not to mention the fact you'd be risking it all to appease one guy's ego when he's being unprofessional. Would you risk it?

 

Originally posted by draVen

I think Vince deserved that punch backstage

 

Maybe he did deserve it, I might probably have done the same. But if Bret was a decent guy he'd have realised Vince had no choice, apologised (and Vince would have too), shook hands, and that would have been the end of it.

 

Ed

[Guest Tajiri]

Which times were these? He jobbed the belt to Sid, and was going to job the belt to Mankind (until Vince changed the ending at ringside). The only one people *claim* he refused to job was WM XIII, but that's only a rumour.

 

He was ment to job the title to Vader, not Sid, but refused, its funny that leading up to WM XIII Shawn was struck down with a carrer ending back injury and painkiller addiction only to make a miraculous recovery within a month sadly missing his chance to job, in late 97 Shawn publically boasted that there was no left in the company that he would ever job to and he was even refusing to job to Austin leading up to WM 14 a story told by Mark Calloway repeatly.

 

You can't question Michael’s ability in the ring but for most of his carer his professionalism was non existent.

Edited August 21, 2003 by Tajiri

[Guest Matt]

Hey Draven didn't you put an end to this thread if not pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Guest Ed_666]

Originally posted by Tajiri

He was ment to job the title to Vader, not Sid, but refused, its funny that leading up to WM XIII Shawn was struck down with a carrer ending back injury and painkiller addiction only to make a miraculous recovery within a month sadly missing his chance to job, in late 97 Shawn publically boasted that there was no left in the company that he would ever job to and he was even refusing to job to Austin leading up to WM 14 a story told by Mark Calloway repeatly.

 

Why would Shawn refuse to job to Vader but agree to job to Sid and Mankind?

 

I thought it was a knee-injury he had at WM XIII? Or was that when he had to vacate the IC title?

 

Either way, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he DID have a valid injury, and since he'd jobbed to Bret many times before, why would he bother?

 

 

Originally posted by Tajiri

You can't question Michael’s ability in the ring but for most of his carer his professionalism was non existent.

 

Even if we accept that was the case, does that mean that Bret being equally unprofessional is ok?

 

You could even say that Shawn (ego-driven or not) was refusing to job cause he thought him being champ was best for the company. Bret doesn't even have that excuse cause he was leaving and would have to drop the belt on Raw.

 

Also, at this point, wasn't Raw recorded two weeks at a time? Therefore if he'd dropped the belt on a non-live Raw (a 50% chance), Bischoff could have unvieled him as signed BEFORE he was seen to drop the title.

 

Ed

[Dead Crow 370]

The RAW after Survivor Series was held the day after SS, so that explination doesn't work in VInce's favor.

 

Shawn refused to job to Vader.. who knows why? But he did pretty much what he wanted and handpicked his opponents. It's wellknown that he liked Sid, and probably liked Foley too. If he didn't like Vader, he didn't have to job to him, cas back then, he had Vince over a barrel, and what Shawn said went. Thats not hearsay. Thats fact.

 

and since he'd jobbed to Bret many times before, why would he bother?

And since Bret put Shawn over at the biggest PPV of the year (Wrestlemania 12) and had got shit in return, why would Bret wanna bother?

 

I understand that Bret was partly in the wrong. But you're making out like Bret was the only one in the wrong and the one who was more in the wrong than anyone else, and believe me, he wasn't. The shit Shawn pulled in his day puts Bret's little "refusing to job in Canada" to absolute shame. When they say "HHH learned from the best", they aren't lying.

[Guest Jung]

Shawn for ages bragged backstage before WM14, that he wasn't gonna job to Austin, and he would get out of it. Apparantly the story goes one day, Undertaker literally went up to him, and told him if he doesnt drop the title to Austin at Mania, then he'd get a real life beating from Mr. Callaway, thus HBK jobbed.

[Guest Ed_666]

Originally posted by draVen

The RAW after Survivor Series was held the day after SS, so that explination doesn't work in VInce's favor.

 

But wasn't the Raw after the SS also in Canada? They usually are? So Bret wouldn't have jobbed there either.

 

Even if it wasn't, jobbing the belt on Raw means less, and would have made Shawn look bad if he'd jobbed it to someone else.

 

If it's a choice of burying your top talent, or burying someone who's going to work for your opponent, who would you choose?

 

Originally posted by draVen

Shawn refused to job to Vader.. who knows why? But he did pretty much what he wanted and handpicked his opponents. It's wellknown that he liked Sid, and probably liked Foley too. If he didn't like Vader, he didn't have to job to him, cas back then, he had Vince over a barrel, and what Shawn said went. Thats not hearsay. Thats fact.

 

That's just the same as lots of top wrestlers over the years, including people like Rock and Austin, but it's irrelevent to Montreal.

 

Originally posted by draVen

And since Bret put Shawn over at the biggest PPV of the year (Wrestlemania 12) and had got shit in return, why would Bret wanna bother?

 

I understand that Bret was partly in the wrong. But you're making out like Bret was the only one in the wrong and the one who was more in the wrong than anyone else, and believe me, he wasn't. The shit Shawn pulled in his day puts Bret's little "refusing to job in Canada" to absolute shame. When they say "HHH learned from the best", they aren't lying.

 

Bret should have bothered cause it was his job to bother.

 

I've never said Shawn was a saint during his career, but anything Shawn did was backstage, and wasn't potentially harming to the company.

 

Any shit that Shawn pulled (refusing to job to Vader) was made up for by him jobbing to other people (Sid), and when Shawn's career was (apparently) over, and he had to "pass the torch", what did he do?

 

Did he refuse to job at WM XIV and offer to drop the title on Raw or forfeit it? No, he did the RIGHT THING.

 

Pity Bret couldn't do that when his time to leave WWF came.

 

Ed

[Dead Crow 370]

Shawn had no choice to job to Austin. Vince was getting business back and Shawn wasn't a guy he had to fully rely on anymore. If Shawn would have had his way, he wouldn't have jobbed at all.

 

As far as Shawn not harming the cmopany goes... erm... since when was putting a belt on Sid "not harmful to a company"? Shawn didn't give a toss about the WWE. He gave a toss about number one, and number one to him was always Shawn Michaels.

 

So in hindsight, Bret and Shawn were just as bad as each other, although on the wider scale, Shawn was far worse.

[Guest Rikidozan]

Boy Ed, you're one mixed-up WWE fan. So, you actually agree that Vince HAD to do what he did?...if so, God help you, don't ever become a promoter.

[Guest Ed_666]

Screwed up? What on earth is screwed up about thinking the future of the company is more important than one (leaving) guy's ego?

 

Bret's motives were ego-driven, Vince did what was best for the WWF. Doesn't sound screwed up to me.

 

Ed

[Guest Joe Reilly]

Hey everyone!

 

Sorry Ed, but I gotta go with Vince screwed Bret!

 

As I was reading through this thread, I was about to copy and paste the same thing Kessler did, but he beat me to it!

 

Cheers,

 

Joe Reilly

[Guest Joe Reilly]

Hey Ed,

 

You said the following: "Imagine the uproar if HHH said he'd not job in the US!"

 

Well, it 's not hard to imagine after all, how else has he had such a dispicably long title reign?

 

Some people come across with an argument for this one as well saying that it gives credibility to the belt if the champion has a lenghty reign, but why Triple H?

 

The guy can't work at a fraction of the level he could in 2000! In fact, I'm currently wondering who would have to carry who between HHH and Goldburp!

 

I think we know why Triple H is the only guy in the WWF these days that would ever get away with belt hogging! If you're gonna have a lenghty reign, but it on someone who deserves it!

 

Jericho would be a good choice in my book, as he's entertaining, great worker, can even carry Hogan to a good match! Also, his first Undisputed title reign was made a shambles, as he was expected to screw guys at leastv two or three times in the one match! You may as well be burying him in that case!

 

I bet if HHH was told he had to win like that, he'd have a problem with it!

 

Cheers,

 

Joe Reilly

[Guest Matt]

What about the other players in the screw job. Earl Hebner knew he was going to ring the bell as soon as Shawn applied the Sharpshooter and apparently he legged to a waiting car that took him away from the arena. And HHH he was at ringside immediately after the match finished he must have known what was gonna happen. what's your take on that guys?

[Guest Ed_666]

Originally posted by Joe Reilly

Hey Ed,

 

You said the following: "Imagine the uproar if HHH said he'd not job in the US!"

 

Well, it 's not hard to imagine after all, how else has he had such a dispicably long title reign?

 

Some people come across with an argument for this one as well saying that it gives credibility to the belt if the champion has a lenghty reign, but why Triple H?

 

The guy can't work at a fraction of the level he could in 2000! In fact, I'm currently wondering who would have to carry who between HHH and Goldburp!

 

I think we know why Triple H is the only guy in the WWF these days that would ever get away with belt hogging! If you're gonna have a lenghty reign, but it on someone who deserves it!

 

Jericho would be a good choice in my book, as he's entertaining, great worker, can even carry Hogan to a good match! Also, his first Undisputed title reign was made a shambles, as he was expected to screw guys at leastv two or three times in the one match! You may as well be burying him in that case!

 

I bet if HHH was told he had to win like that, he'd have a problem with it!

 

Cheers,

 

Joe Reilly

 

It's pretty simple why HHH has had such long title reigns. Notwithstanding the fact that he's the best all-rounder, who else is there to take the title?

 

Booker T sucks badly, RVD has no mic skills, and no-one seems to like Kane (although I think he'd be good).

 

I'm sure Steiner would have got the title had he not sucked so badly, and Nash may well have got it too if his matches had been a success.

 

Another thing which always confuses me is why people think HHH is bad in the ring now.

 

In 2002 he had arguably MOTY with HBK at Summerslam

In 2001 he was voted MOTY with Austin at No Way Out (I think)

In 2000 he was voted MOTY with Foley at, maybe NWO again.

 

Not bad for someone who can't wrestle, eh? :P

 

And as it relates to the Bret discussion, we don't know of any instances of HHH refusing to job to anyone, so it's hardly valid here.

 

Ed

[Dead Crow 370]

See, you've just f*cked your whole argument up. Why bring up matches that happened up to 3 years ago and then call that proof that he can wrestle NOW? No one is doubting that in 2000, the dude was a great talent. He was the best in the industry. Then when he got injured, he pumped up some more, and when he came back, size wise he was bigger, but ability wise he wasn't better. He was worse. The dude is not what he was at all. He's boring, in my and a lot of peoples opinions. Forget the backstage politics. The man doesn't deliver in the ring. His match with HBK was MOTY for no other reason than it being Shawn Michaels return match, and the fact that HHH actually looks like he's trying when he's in there against his buddies.

 

Right now, Chris Jericho, who has practically carried RAW as of late, should be champion. He's more over than ever, and has done more than HHH is in the ring. HHH is the champion cas Vince loves him. Nothing to do with ability. If it was based on ability, half the roster would have more claim to the belt than HHH.

 

As for HHH refusing to job - I know of a few instants vaguely, but I think the main one was when he even tried frantically to convince Vince not to make him job the title to Hulk Hogan last year. Now I'm in agreement with HHH fully on that one, but still - you seem to be under the "you're told to job, so job" professionalism, so condone HHH for this one.

[Guest tazz13]

i agree with ed on the vince/bret situation

 

i also agree that i don't see how bringing up anything to do with hhh is at all relevant

 

but i agree with draven...hhh is not what he used to be in the ring...he's pumped up and slow and no where near his 2000 level...that being said i think he was a bit better lately until his injury

[Guest Ed_666]

Originally posted by draVen

See, you've just f*cked your whole argument up. Why bring up matches that happened up to 3 years ago and then call that proof that he can wrestle NOW? No one is doubting that in 2000, the dude was a great talent. He was the best in the industry. Then when he got injured, he pumped up some more, and when he came back, size wise he was bigger, but ability wise he wasn't better. He was worse. The dude is not what he was at all. He's boring, in my and a lot of peoples opinions. Forget the backstage politics. The man doesn't deliver in the ring. His match with HBK was MOTY for no other reason than it being Shawn Michaels return match, and the fact that HHH actually looks like he's trying when he's in there against his buddies.

 

I wasn't using at as proof he can wrestle now (apart from the 2002 one), I was pointing out that if he's had MOTY for the last 3 years, how bad can he be?

 

Also, your comment about him only trying against it buddies is looking at it the wrong way. Remember when he was in his prime in 99-01? Look at the list of the guys he was fighting:

 

Angle

Jericho

Austin

Benoit

Rock

Foley

 

Now look at the sort of people he's been fighting for the last year or so:

 

Hogan

Booker T

Kane

RVD

Steiner

Nash

 

He has 1 singles match against a top quality guy (who'd been retired for FOUR YEARS+) and he has MOTY!!

 

Don't you think it's possible that it's more than a coincidence that in his "prime" he was fighting great wrestlers, and now he's fighting guys like Steiner and Booker T who suck badly in the ring?

 

If was fighting people like Lesnar, Angle, Benoit on SD he'd be having MOTY contenders every month.

 

Originally posted by draVen

Right now, Chris Jericho, who has practically carried RAW as of late, should be champion. He's more over than ever, and has done more than HHH is in the ring. HHH is the champion cas Vince loves him. Nothing to do with ability. If it was based on ability, half the roster would have more claim to the belt than HHH.

 

Actually I've thought Jericho's been pretty poor for a while. Apart from his matches with HBK he's not done anything memorable, and his current persona is not as funny as the previous heel ones.

 

 

Originally posted by draVen

As for HHH refusing to job - I know of a few instants vaguely, but I think the main one was when he even tried frantically to convince Vince not to make him job the title to Hulk Hogan last year. Now I'm in agreement with HHH fully on that one, but still - you seem to be under the "you're told to job, so job" professionalism, so condone HHH for this one.

 

Erm, but HHH did drop the belt to Hogan, and didn't "get his win back" like everyone always wants people to do against him.

 

And how come I've never heard of this supposed frantic attempts? I've been surrounded by HHH-bashers for ages, and no-one's mentioned it before.

 

If that's the best one you can come up for refusing to job with it's pretty poor, since he didn't. If anything that proves he IS professional, and WILL job to anyone, cause he jobbed to a 50 year old.

 

Ed

[Guest Seabass]

bottom line IMO- Vince screwed Bret. He made the pre-emptive attack on Bret.

 

As for HHH being the best all rounder. Arguable in 99-01 (though i still would overall say he wasn't). But today...hell no is he the best all rounder.

Booker T no way sucks. he's good on the mic, a great worker who can put on some great matches and the fans love him. The reason why he dosen't look like a potential threat to HHH's title...well hell i just mentioned his name...it's due to HHH...and WWE booking (come on, HHH dosen't deserve all the blame).

 

RVD can be pretty good on the mic at times (his angle with HHH {last year i think} was great)...but yeah he does need to improve a bit. and maybe he could expand on his moveset a bit...and improve on other ring qualities. but the fact remains, this guy is over...hell he's super over. RVD IMO would make a good (short reign) champ.

 

Kane, again a victim of a HHH angle designed to weaken the opposition (...think i'll call it WWE-style proaganda). Kane as a freindly freakish monster would make a okay champ. but Kane as a near unstopable freakish monster would make a good champ.

 

i left out Jericho becuase he's a heel right now...but say he does win in the EC chamber and dosen't lose the title to Whisker Biscuit (a.k.a Goldberg) next month (it's a gut feeling)...he would make a good...no great champ if he's not told to cheat in EVERY match (jesus he was told cheat against Maven...sheesh)

 

eh, that's my 2 pennies

[Dead Crow 370]

I wasn't using at as proof he can wrestle now (apart from the 2002 one), I was pointing out that if he's had MOTY for the last 3 years, how bad can he be?

No one is saying he wasn't good back then. But it's now that we're dealing with, and now is the time that he simply isn't as good as he was. There's no denying that fact.

 

Also, your comment about him only trying against it buddies is looking at it the wrong way. Remember when he was in his prime in 99-01? Look at the list of the guys he was fighting:

 

Angle

Jericho

Austin

Benoit

Rock

Foley

 

Now look at the sort of people he's been fighting for the last year or so:

 

Hogan

Booker T

Kane

RVD

Steiner

Nash

 

He has 1 singles match against a top quality guy (who'd been retired for FOUR YEARS+) and he has MOTY!!

 

Don't you think it's possible that it's more than a coincidence that in his "prime" he was fighting great wrestlers, and now he's fighting guys like Steiner and Booker T who suck badly in the ring?

Oh I agree that his opponents have been awful. But he's had matches against Jericho since his injury, and looked bad. Guys like Hurricane, Maven, guys who are of better ability than Steiner and co. And his matches have been "ok" at best. Maybe its possible that HHH simply isn't as good as he was, and isn't able to carry people like a good wrestler can. C'mon - of course hes gonna have good matches with Angle, Jericho and Benoit. They could carry me and you to 4 star matches.

 

And as for this MOTY thing, as I told ya, it was novelty on the part of HBK more than HHH's involvement. You could have put Jericho, Rocky, Lesnar, or anyone in the heel role against HBK, and it would have been match of the year.. why? Cas HBK was making his comeback. Simple as.

 

If was fighting people like Lesnar, Angle, Benoit on SD he'd be having MOTY contenders every month.

Thats only if they carry him well enough, and he gives them offense. He's doing it more as of late, credit where its due. But at the start of the year, bar Steiner (who wasn't exactly gonna make HHH make him look like a punk - he did that himself), HHH wasn't seemingly big on making his opponents look good.

 

Actually I've thought Jericho's been pretty poor for a while. Apart from his matches with HBK he's not done anything memorable, and his current persona is not as funny as the previous heel ones.

In the ring, you're right. He hasn't been given the chance to do much that has been memorable, apart from the HBK match (which was more of a match than HHH and HBK was). Dunno about his heel persona. I think its good that hes not as funny. If hes gonna be a main event act, he can't be a comedy main event act, otherwise no one will take him seriously. The only time I think the comedy is needed is with the Highlight Reel (which is more entertaining than any HHH promo I've heard over the past two years).

 

Erm, but HHH did drop the belt to Hogan, and didn't "get his win back" like everyone always wants people to do against him.

 

And how come I've never heard of this supposed frantic attempts? I've been surrounded by HHH-bashers for ages, and no-one's mentioned it before.

 

If that's the best one you can come up for refusing to job with it's pretty poor, since he didn't. If anything that proves he IS professional, and WILL job to anyone, cause he jobbed to a 50 year old.

He only jobbed cas VInce was relentless in making Hogan champion. It's not that big common knowledge, but its well-known enough that Vince only decided to make Hogan the champion that very day, and HHH and Steph spent a lot of the day trying to convincr him otherwise. It's probably been the only time that Vince hasn't backed down to HHH to my knowledge.

 

And HHH got his win back the following month against Jericho in the Hell In a Cell. You didn't think Jericho jobbed for the fun of it did ya?

[Guest tazz13]

Originally posted by Ed_666

Also, your comment about him only trying against it buddies is looking at it the wrong way. Remember when he was in his prime in 99-01? Look at the list of the guys he was fighting:

 

Angle

Jericho

Austin

Benoit

Rock

Foley

 

Now look at the sort of people he's been fighting for the last year or so:

 

Hogan

Booker T

Kane

RVD

Steiner

Nash

 

He has 1 singles match against a top quality guy (who'd been retired for FOUR YEARS+) and he has MOTY!!

 

 

Ed

 

back in 99-01 he was also carrying stiffs like rikishi to good matches...now, unless he's in their with a great worker such as michaels, his matches tend to suck...he just can't carry anyone in a match anymore, which in my opinion is a direct result of his quad injury and his bulked up body

 

injury prone + inability to get a good match out of a lesser opponent = elimination chamber