Who screwed who?

[Guest Seabass]

Originally posted by Ed_666

I wasn't using at as proof he can wrestle now (apart from the 2002 one), I was pointing out that if he's had MOTY for the last 3 years, how bad can he be?

 

Also, your comment about him only trying against it buddies is looking at it the wrong way. Remember when he was in his prime in 99-01? Look at the list of the guys he was fighting:

 

Angle

Jericho

Austin

Benoit

Rock

Foley

 

Wouldn't that mean that those guys manage to carry HHH to a great match :D

okay another cheap shot. Seriously, Angle is a great wrestler and manage to get a watchable match out of Big Show and Hulk Hogan. so him having a great match with HHH is not out of the question. Jericho....best all rounder IMO, Benoit...

okay rather then waste my energy. i'm just gonna say in 99-01, HHH was in his prime. and plus he had the right oppenents, so that's why he had some fantastic matches

 

Now look at the sort of people he's been fighting for the last year or so:

 

Hogan

Booker T

Kane

RVD

Steiner

Nash

 

He has 1 singles match against a top quality guy (who'd been retired for FOUR YEARS+) and he has MOTY!!

 

Don't you think it's possible that it's more than a coincidence that in his "prime" he was fighting great wrestlers, and now he's fighting guys like Steiner and Booker T who suck badly in the ring?

 

If was fighting people like Lesnar, Angle, Benoit on SD he'd be having MOTY contenders every month.

 

Now...Hogan, Nash, Steiner and maybe to a lesser extent, Kane are not suitable opponets and HHH is not in his prime anymore...hmmmm maybe HHH isn't so much to blame (hell, he had to carry steiner to a...erm.....watchable at a far distance match). but when guys like RVD and Booker T have to carry him to a passable match. then you got problems.

wanna know why HHH would probably have MOTY contenders with Benoit, Angle and Lesnar...because he'd be carried by those three.

 

 

Actually I've thought Jericho's been pretty poor for a while. Apart from his matches with HBK he's not done anything memorable, and his current persona is not as funny as the previous heel ones.

 

nothing memorable...hello, Highight Reel!!!. if you mean matches, blame it on booking. there job to put thier top stars in matches, fueds that will get the crowds talking and watching

 

 

Erm, but HHH did drop the belt to Hogan, and didn't "get his win back" like everyone always wants people to do against him.

 

eh, call it luck on Hogan's part. he was on SD! while HHH was on RAW!. Had Hogan been on Raw...HHH would have got his heat back. as it is, i don't think he's too bothered as HHH vs Hogan match isn't remembered that much

 

And how come I've never heard of this supposed frantic attempts? I've been surrounded by HHH-bashers for ages, and no-one's mentioned it before.

 

if you go to yahoo wrestling chat, your on the worng chat room:D it's been reported (yes not proven, but strong evidence nevertheless) that HHH got vince to change his kind about Booker T beating him for the title and then again got him to change his mind about Nash beating him for the title.

 

If that's the best one you can come up for refusing to job with it's pretty poor, since he didn't. If anything that proves he IS professional, and WILL job to anyone, cause he jobbed to a 50 year old.

 

Hogan is not just a 50 year old! he's an icon, a living legend (Riki might not agree to that but :P). he's been there, done that, got (and then sold) the T-shirt and written a book abt it. he knows the game politics and stuff...but at the end of the day, he's a man who should have retired a long time ago. HHH most liklely has respect for the man, but to job to him is probably embrassing and plus i probably can't see it benfiting HHH.

i guess what i'm trying to say is, HHH probably wanted to not job to Hogan...but at the end of the day, Hogan was the more convincing.

[Guest Simon]

Stop stop STOP.

 

Match of the year with Austin in 2001.... I disagree... just because JR said it was does not mean he is right damnit.

 

Match of the year with HBK in 2002? Another one that is very arguable.

 

The argument should not get past the fact that even though we are discussing HHH, he is at the end of the day pretty much what HBK was. And that's an asshole. Guys like him take away from the enjoyment of wrestling with their petty politics, and the sooner they both get injured and just f*** off the goddamn better.

 

HHH has been crap since 2001. What is there to argue?

[Guest Ed_666]

Originally posted by Seabass

Wouldn't that mean that those guys manage to carry HHH to a great match :D

okay another cheap shot. Seriously, Angle is a great wrestler and manage to get a watchable match out of Big Show and Hulk Hogan. so him having a great match with HHH is not out of the question. Jericho....best all rounder IMO, Benoit...

okay rather then waste my energy. i'm just gonna say in 99-01, HHH was in his prime. and plus he had the right oppenents, so that's why he had some fantastic matches

 

Now...Hogan, Nash, Steiner and maybe to a lesser extent, Kane are not suitable opponets and HHH is not in his prime anymore...hmmmm maybe HHH isn't so much to blame (hell, he had to carry steiner to a...erm.....watchable at a far distance match). but when guys like RVD and Booker T have to carry him to a passable match. then you got problems.

wanna know why HHH would probably have MOTY contenders with Benoit, Angle and Lesnar...because he'd be carried by those three.

 

I actually though HHH's match with Kane was pretty good, and very well booked and made Kane look good.

 

Booker T sucks completely, and is very boring in the ring since all he has are 13 kicks, and 2 wrestling moves. It's no wonder that HHH couldn't carry him.

 

Can't really remember the RVD match, but I don't remember it being bad.

 

The problem is now, he has some good matches and some average matches, whereas before he had some brilliant matches, and his bad ones were still good because he was fighting top guys.

 

His match against HBK at Summerslam, and his performance in the EC last time (even when injured) showed he's still a top performer, he just doesn't have quality opponents week in and week out like he had before.

 

Originally posted by Seabass

nothing memorable...hello, Highight Reel!!!. if you mean matches, blame it on booking. there job to put thier top stars in matches, fueds that will get the crowds talking and watching

[/b]

 

I don't remember anything good happening on there. Every week someone comes down, then usually beats up Jericho and wrecks the set a bit. Nothing interesting has happened that I can remember, and not much that was funny. The funniest things that have happened on there were Christian's stuff.

 

Originally posted by Seabass

if you go to yahoo wrestling chat, your on the worng chat room:D it's been reported (yes not proven, but strong evidence nevertheless) that HHH got vince to change his kind about Booker T beating him for the title and then again got him to change his mind about Nash beating him for the title.

 

You see, there's a difference between getting him to change his mind and refusing to job. If Vince says "I want to put the title on Kurt Angle" (assume he's on the same show), and HHH won't do it, then he'd be refusing. If Vince says "I think we should put the title on Lance Storm" (or Booker T), and HHH rightly points out that Booker sucks donkey balls, and Vince realises he was just temporarily insane, that's fine. That's called doing what's best for Raw, and what's best for Raw doesn't include putting the title on some guy who sucks and is only over cause of a breakdance move. You might as well put it on Scotty 2 Hotty, although he can wrestle better than Booker!

 

Originally posted by Seabass

Hogan is not just a 50 year old! he's an icon, a living legend (Riki might not agree to that but :P). he's been there, done that, got (and then sold) the T-shirt and written a book abt it. he knows the game politics and stuff...but at the end of the day, he's a man who should have retired a long time ago. HHH most liklely has respect for the man, but to job to him is probably embrassing and plus i probably can't see it benfiting HHH.

i guess what i'm trying to say is, HHH probably wanted to not job to Hogan...but at the end of the day, Hogan was the more convincing.

 

Well of course he didn't WANT to do the job, Hogan's past his prime, and HHH only won the title the month before. The point is he was professional and did what the bookers told him to do, whether he liked it or not.

 

Ed

[Dead Crow 370]

The only reason he did was because he and Steph couldn't get Vince to change his mind. Vince was unrelentless about Hogan being champion. Plus, Hogan has a creative control clause. Bret Hart had a creative control clause. HHH doesn't. So rather than risk damaging relations between him and Vince, considering HHH wasn't leaving the company and obviously needs to be in Vince's good books all the time, HHH did what he didn't wanna do and did a half arsed job about it.

[Guest Seabass]

Originally posted by Ed_666

 

 

You see, there's a difference between getting him to change his mind and refusing to job. If Vince says "I want to put the title on Kurt Angle" (assume he's on the same show), and HHH won't do it, then he'd be refusing. If Vince says "I think we should put the title on Lance Storm" (or Booker T), and HHH rightly points out that Booker sucks donkey balls, and Vince realises he was just temporarily insane, that's fine. That's called doing what's best for Raw, and what's best for Raw doesn't include putting the title on some guy who sucks and is only over cause of a breakdance move. You might as well put it on Scotty 2 Hotty, although he can wrestle better than Booker!

 

 

Booker T isn't just over becuase of the spinaronnie, it's becuase he's charasmatic and can make matches entertaining to watch (plus he did a good job of carrying HHH to a watchable match :D)

if HHH was doing what's best for Raw, he would have dropped the title some months ago. but instead he keeps finidng ways to hold on to that title

 

Well of course he didn't WANT to do the job, Hogan's past his prime, and HHH only won the title the month before. The point is he was professional and did what the bookers told him to do, whether he liked it or not.

 

ffair enough that he wouldn't want to job to Hogan, but i think he did that out of relectance rather then profressionalism. remember, it's the rock who jobs to almost anyone, HHH only jobs if it benefits him in the future

 

His match against HBK at Summerslam, and his performance in the EC last time (even when injured) showed he's still a top performer, he just doesn't have quality opponents week in and week out like he had before.

 

yeah his Match with HBK was enjoyable (though you could find alot of negatives about it). Guess it's down to good chemistry.

EC was good due to HBK and Jerichio (and maybe RVD).

true Raw does lack Wrestlers that could help HHH to a decent match...but that dosen't mean he gets let off for blame.

 

HHH is still a good preformer and (most of he times) tries his hardest in PPV's and with the right opponents, he can be helped to a good match...but lets face it. he's a shadow of the 99-01 HHH

[Guest Ed_666]

Talk about double-standards!!

 

When Bret doesn't want to do a job cause of his ego, he's perfectly entitled to screw up the WWF's title scene by refusing to job in his last PPV, but when HHH doesn't want to job to a 50 year old, after he's only held the title a month, but he still DOES the job, you still call him names!!

 

Ed

[Guest Tajiri]

HHH did the job with 3 run-ins, a belt shot and a chair shot got his title back 3 months later and damn long run with it in the process so he hardly made a huge sacrifice. HHH is way to smart to blow is current status as Vince McMahons trusted favourite.

 

HHH rightly points out that Booker sucks donkey balls, and Vince realises he was just temporarily insane, that's fine. That's called doing what's best for Raw,

 

No its called using your position of power within the company to keep a title on yourself at the expense of another over worker.

Edited August 22, 2003 by Tajiri

[Guest Seabass]

Originally posted by Ed_666

Talk about double-standards!!

 

When Bret doesn't want to do a job cause of his ego, he's perfectly entitled to screw up the WWF's title scene by refusing to job in his last PPV, but when HHH doesn't want to job to a 50 year old, after he's only held the title a month, but he still DOES the job, you still call him names!!

 

 

don't get me wrong, i don't blame HHH not jobbing to Hogan...but then, if it was for the best of SD!, why do you have a problem with it :? :D

i'd call him names at not jobbing to Booker T and Jericho :P

 

 

i doubt Bret jobbed becuase of his ego (rather that would be HBK :P ) and i beleived he would have dropped the title on anywhere but candian soil. Also i think Bret, HBK and Vince agree to a plan and so due to the Montreal Screw job, it was really Vince (and HBK) that screwed up the WWF title scene (for a little bit)

[Dead Crow 370]

See.. thats the major thing. Vince AGREED to an ending with Bret. They shook hands and agreed on it. It's Vinces fault. He had no trust, he renegaded on a plan he agreed to, and screwed Bret. Bret stuck to the storyline and I doubt very much that Bret would even consider walking to WCW with the belt.

[Guest Tajiri]

If Bret had of enerted WCW with the belt he would be jobbing to half the roster just so Bischoff could play up what a joke the WWF champion is. Mind you did end up jobbing to half the roster anyway.

[Guest Simon]

I'm starting to wonder Ed.... if HBK had been in Bret's situation would you be saying Vince McMahon was right? :P

[Guest Joe Reilly]

Hey Ed!

 

You know that I enjoy reading your posts as you add some colour to the conversations which creates debate, but in all honesty, are you sure that you're not in denial over the whole HHH thing?

 

If you are, I can understand a little bit, as I was definitley a fan of HHH 1999 - 2001, but I can accept HHH is not an all rounder anymore! I know it hurts for one to admit that their hero has lost it, but it's okay, man, you can do it!

 

Cheers,

 

Joe Reilly