Rey Mysterio: a flip pity flip flopper?

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

This is now a thread. Sorry Belty, I laughed too hard at it not to.

 

I'd actually love a 100% serious elaboration as to what is lacking with Rey's psychology, apart from being Mexican. I can understand a lot of the arguments against Rey, even if I disagree with them (size disparity, does less movez than he used to, I don't like lucha or flips, the 619) but that one I don't immediately buy without justification.

[Maxximus 353]

When he can shoot spider webs and climb buildings, I'll be impressed. Saying booyaka, walking out dressed like a peacock and attempting to murder people with his leg brace isn't getting it done brother!

 

I hear ya. I like Rey, but if he retired I wouldn't be broken up about it. He's had his glory days.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

They do it for Christian too so he can do his "leap over the top rope and then nail them with a punch as the opponent is draped on the ropes spot".

 

And Mark Henry for his neck snap. And Jericho for his running leg lariat thing. And that guy who does the leaping draping leg drop (Jerry Lynn or some shit? I think that may be the bottom rope anyway).

[Guest The Beltster]

No, they only do it for Rey. Flip pity fact.

[DC 536]

No, they only do it for Rey. Flip pity fact.

11:51

[video=youtube_share;z7G1iaqm8nY]http://youtu.be/z7G1iaqm8nY

 

10:12

[video=youtube_share;e2oAsDElK0A]http://youtu.be/e2oAsDElK0A

 

That's two matches in row that wrestlers have ended up draped on the second rope for Christian (with Cesaro's being much more blatant).

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

I'm pretty sure he was joking mate.

[Guest The Beltster]

:lol Come on now Henry.

 

As for why I question his psychology, I dont think he wrestles like a little guy all the time. What I mean is, Rey is always in there with guys bigger than him, always, but he only seems to play unto that fact when he is in there with giant guys, like Big Show, Khali or whoever. When he wrestles those guys, he kicks the legs, tries to bring them down and take away the size advantage right? Good psychology, but he only does it with those massive guys, even though he should do it with everybody, because everybody is bigger than him. He should do it with Orton, but he doesn't. Its like he only works small when he's in there with a 7 foot tall monster and aside from that, he just gets his moves in and seems happy with that. Rey should ALWAYS work small, just like Big Show should always work huge and not sell so much and continually go off his feet to guys who, realistically, would never take him down.

 

Stuff like that bothers me, Rey seems to fall in and out of the gimmick when it suits him. When he is using psychology, he's fine at it, but when he chooses not too, he's just in there jumping around.

Edited February 16, 2014 by The Beltster

[DC 536]

I'm pretty sure he was joking mate.

I wasn't 100% sure. :lol

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Fair enough.

 

My counter to that is that I think he does work small against guys who are smaller than giants. I don't have any good examples off-hand, I'd have to look them up, but they definitely exist. I mean, you even look at him work against traditionally small guys like Morrison, Shawn, Eddie, Benoit, Jericho...and they actually look 'bigger' than they normally would because he allows them to get heat on a smaller opponent and work as the bigger man in the match.

 

The other thing I think is that when he's in there with normal sized and under wrestlers, I think he has to work bigger than he is to a certain extent, or else not have any credibility. When you're that small you kind of have to "prove" that you actually belong in the ring with a guy who's a head taller than you, otherwise it's a farce. Hence why he gets a lot of shine against guys by running and flying around and hitting his shit. It's not about him not working small enough, but working just big enough, if that makes any sense. I think if he got splatted around by the Ortons of the world he'd look even more ridiculous making a comeback in the end, and we're talking about a guy who is booked to be credible against these guys. At least by hitting his offense he looks like a guy who is able to hit offense on guys, which is the only way he could actually win.

 

And especially with the point about Show, some of it is simply booking as well. Show doesn't work like an unstoppable giant all the time like he should (and I agree) because he's not always booked to be an unstoppable giant. Sometimes he's comedy Smilin' Show, or heel doofus Show, or tag team Show, or midcard Show, times where his role is to lose to other people and put them over. So for the times that Rey is being booked in the world title picture or in a feud with a heavyweight or whatever, he has to wrestle to that level because that's where he's being booked and portrayed as.

 

As an aside (a gigantic aside) I was serious about the 'Top 10 worker for two decades' thing, although when I think about it for a second, you'd have to throw out certain years for injury (2007, 08) and not-doing-anything-ness (2001) just for lack of footage. But if you take years when he was active for at least half the year in a major company, I'll stand by it. Rey was awesome since the mid-90s and never stopped.

 

I'm not trying to change your mind here, I know I'm falling on deaf ears when it comes to Rey on this board, but it's going to be fun to explore the idea anyway. Feel free to ignore me.

 

2011 he missed the last four months but was phenomenal in the 12 weeks or so before his injury, working at a rate better than one great match per week before it was cool, or actually possible. Shit tonnes of good TV matches, and some high-end stuff like Cena on Raw and Punk at Capitol Punishment. I'm pretty sure I had him Top 5 in my 2011 Best Wrestlers list.

 

2010 he was the best worker in the company fairly easily. I can't even imagine who else it could have been. Between the Punk feud and World Title run he had a lot more high profile stuff than usual and got to have some big PPV matches. Punk series was great, he got heaps out of Swagger like few others have, the Taker match, had that great match with Alberto like five minutes into his career, the Shawn SD match, TLC, etc.

 

2009 he was part of the New SD Six group that was having great matches out the wazoo on a weekly basis. The Jericho feud was amazing, there's the great Morrison match, SD matches with Edge, Jericho, Batista, the Jerishow tag title match at HIAC, Dolph at Summerslam. He's definitely Top 10 here in a strong WWE year.

 

2008 he missed most of through injury, but when he was around he was one of the guys holding the wrestling side of Raw together with that tag team with Bourne. Also the Punk match at Armageddon. Not his best year though.

 

2006 I'd again argue he was the best worker in the company. Great matches on SD with Henry, Angle, Orton, JBL, Finlay, fun stuff at the ECW events with RVD and Sabu, dragging something worthwhile out of Chavo...and all the while swimming upstream against all-time horrific booking as champ.

 

2005 Rey and Eddie carried WWE with their feud. Shitloads of great matches with Eddie alone. Also with Angle, JBL, Shawn. The MNM series. Eddie G was number one and the best in 2005, but Rey was not far behind.

 

The 2003-04 period may get slept on because he was in the cruiser division, but he was a great cruiser ace and had great matches in that time, not only with all the cruisers but also guys like Angle, Lesnar, Cena, Eddie. Great series with Tajiri. Gave Chavo the best match of his career at GAB 2004. The great tag title matches w/ Kidman vs WGTT. Great title match with Matt Hardy in San Diego. 2004 was the last year that the Raw roster out-worked SD's, but Rey was one of the shining lights on SD.

 

2002 we're talking the SD Six era which barely needs to be explained. He only worked four months in WWE that year but I'd still have him right up there. In fact all the non-Chavo SD Sixers were 1-5 in WWE for 2002 in some order.

 

That's a decade from 2002-2011 that he was in the conversation for all the years he was active. I shouldn't really have said two decades because I'm hardly qualified to judge the 90s as a whole without having seen enough of it.

[Guest The Beltster]

Him working bigger to make it not look so farcical though, it just makes it impossible to believe, especially now with how popular MMA has become and how weight divisions are emphasised and cutting is and how you can't be 1lb over etc or you'll have an advantage, so having a guy so small in there trying to beat up bigger guys by working bigger than he is, its just too much of a stretch. He should work small and smart, use speed and tactics to his advantage all the time. I know its a work and thats fair enough but you have to at least buy into the work, I can't with Rey when he doesn't work smart and just is in there doing his moves and flying about and these bigger guys are selling for his soft moves. And those really choreographed set-ups to get into position are like the icing on the cake to kill the illusion.

 

I really do think they should have weight divisions in wrestling at this point, and Rey should be a cruiser, working with other guys around his size and weight. I know he sells shirts and people think he's above cruisers but with his star power he could bring the cruisers up to his level, yeah we all know it won't happen and WWE wouldn't get behind it but it would make me personally buy into Rey as a legit threat if he wasn't in there with guys who can just sling him around like a paper plane.

 

Maybe he was having the best matches at the times you mentioned and I just couldn't appreciate them because I dont like the style. I remember the Angle match at a SummerSlam and thought it was great, I think that was when Rey pretty much first came in to WWE, but aside from that, the Halloween Havoc match and probably a handful I'm forgetting, I just dont like his matches, I can't get into it. Its like ok, here's the acrobatic intermission before the real matches start again, Rey is like the halftime show at a basketball game where the guy juggles 10 balls while riding a unicycle. Its cool to see for 5 minutes but then you want it to end so you can get back to what you really paid to see.

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

Him working bigger to make it not look so farcical though, it just makes it impossible to believe, especially now with how popular MMA has become and how weight divisions are emphasised and cutting is and how you can't be 1lb over etc or you'll have an advantage, so having a guy so small in there trying to beat up bigger guys by working bigger than he is, its just too much of a stretch. He should work small and smart, use speed and tactics to his advantage all the time. I know its a work and thats fair enough but you have to at least buy into the work, I can't with Rey when he doesn't work smart and just is in there doing his moves and flying about and these bigger guys are selling for his soft moves. And those really choreographed set-ups to get into position are like the icing on the cake to kill the illusion.

 

My question to this then, is that why does this matter for Rey more than other guys with size discrepancies?

 

If uneven weights are the key, not just him being tiny, why aren't all weight differences a problem? Why is Randy Orton (240) allowed to compete with Batista (280)? Why is Steve Austin (250) allowed to compete with Undertaker (300)? Why is Randy Savage (235) allowed to compete with Hulk Hogan (300)? Why is Shawn Michaels (220) allowed to compete with Hunter (265)?

 

Why does the difference between 170 and 235 matter in a way that the difference between 235 and 300 doesn't, when the size difference is the same?

[Guest The Beltster]

I think because with Rey he is so blatantly much smaller than everybody else to the point where it stands out, same with Show. If Rey who is what? 160 maybe? Probably less give or take whatever steroids he is using to jack himself up, if he is only allowed to wrestle guys his size and unto 180 and who are generally going to be short, I think it would be better and more credible. And when I say weight divisions in wrestling I dont mean like MMA where it has to be almost exact, I mean yeah you want it believable but it is also a work so you can use the work to your advantage to a degree, just not to a crazy degree where it can't be believed at all.

 

In wrestling I'd have Cruisers upto 180lbs or something, IC from 180 - 230, Heavyweight 230 - 300 then super heavyweight, thats off the top of my head and would need some proper time and thought put into it to make it work and makes sense, but you get the idea. With Orton and Dave, although you can see Dave is more muscular, they kinda look the same sort of size so you can believe one would handle the other and vice versa. Can Rey even pick up anybody? I dont think I've ever even seen him body slam a guy.

 

And for the record, as a kid when I thought that it was all real, I never bought into Ric Flair as a threat to Hulk Hogan because he was so small and just looked like a regular old man off the street, me and my mates would be like this dude beat Andre the Giant, what is Ric Flair going to be able to do with him?! So its not just Rey and its not just a recent thing, I've never been able to get into the smaller guys as credible top liners. Its why I never could get into Bret or Shawn after Hulk and Warrior, they were mid card tag guys who were small and had all lost to other mid card guys who were bigger. If Shawn can't be Akeem, who is by all accounts a jobber, how can he now be world champion being much bigger stars and guys?

 

Size does matter (!), its not the be-all and end-all, but if I was a booker, the first guy I'd want on my roster is Brock Lesnar, because he's big and you can believe he can kick the shit out of people. Rey wouldn't even be on my radar.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Rey in WWE has always been a problem for me. Rey is a great warm up act before a big show. Yeah his moves are fancy and get the crowd excited but then what?

 

Rey basically got to become champion because of the death of Eddie Guerrero. and that's all there is to it. He didn't belong at that level in WWE, I cringed when he eliminated Triple H at the Rumble in 2006. It just wasn't believable. And even now when he somehow overpowers Roman, Cesaro, Orton, it just really annoys me. The only saving grace is that most times now he ends up losing.

[Guest Jayfunk]

I think rey verses big guys works once in a blue moon not every week. The small guy upset can work well but seeing rey beating people much bigger week in week out is just unbelievable and doesn't work imho

[Guest Jimmy Redman]

People thinking Rey is just a guy who does flips always makes me wonder if anyone has actually seen a Rey match ever.

[Guest HH-Evolution]

He's also a good act for the kids and live audiences to buy into - both figuratively and literally...he has a place!

[Guest The B-Man]

Belty, I have to say from most of the guys here I respect your opinion because it's you back it up most of the time with good solid arguements. But it does dissapointment you buy in to the size of the wrestler thing.

 

Not every big guy wins a fight

[Guest The Beltster]

I was raised on 80's WWF wrestling, thats what I like. Huge guys were the main event, I dont care for small gymnastic style wrestlers. Plus how realistic is it for Rey to beat anybody? I mean in reality here, how realistic is it for him to beat Big Show? Its ridiculous.

 

And you're right, in real life not every big guy wins a fight, but if a big guy and a little guy of equal skill or equal lack of skill fight, 9 times out of 10 if the size difference is big, the big guy will win. Again, its why they have weight divisions in combat sports. Jose Aldo is amazing as is Rennan Berao, but put them in with Cain Velasquez and he would tear them up in short order because he is so much bigger and stronger and of equal skill.

 

As they say, a good big man will beat a good little man every day of the week, twice on Sunday.

[Guest Ciaran The King]

Plus how realistic is it for Rey to beat anybody? I mean in reality here, how realistic is it for him to beat Big Show? Its ridiculous.

 

My sentiments exactly, it just makes a mockery of wrestling

[Guest The B-Man]

I was raised on 80's WWF wrestling, thats what I like. Huge guys were the main event, I dont care for small gymnastic style wrestlers. Plus how realistic is it for Rey to beat anybody? I mean in reality here, how realistic is it for him to beat Big Show? Its ridiculous.

 

And you're right, in real life not every big guy wins a fight, but if a big guy and a little guy of equal skill or equal lack of skill fight, 9 times out of 10 if the size difference is big, the big guy will win. Again, its why they have weight divisions in combat sports. Jose Aldo is amazing as is Rennan Berao, but put them in with Cain Velasquez and he would tear them up in short order because he is so much bigger and stronger and of equal skill.

 

As they say, a good big man will beat a good little man every day of the week, twice on Sunday.

 

In a real fight maybe because Big show would be slower and Rey could kick his legs and move quicker, but I do agree to think he can have him on the mat for a 3 count to pin him is ridiculous.

 

I was brought up with 80's wrestling too, but times have changed too.

 

Ideally I would like there to be a few weight classes too but don't think that should limit us from seeing Rey v Cesaro for example because I think that would be a good match. However having Big show v Rey is ridiculous as Big show should just be lifting him and swating him about.

 

It's why I hate punches in wrestling, bar them. Especially to the face as they are terrible looking the majority of the time and if you get it like that you're going down